We are beginning to understand the power of voice interfaces. Power it holds to make our lives easier by creating interfaces that are responsive to things people normally say every day. We are seeing a digital transition from screen to speech dominance. We are moving from interacting with our fingers to the most fundamental human form of contact — "talking" and that's a revolution in making.
In our season one finale, Ep.6 we speak with Preston So, Senior Director, Product Strategy at Oracle about his recently launched book "Voice Content and Usability". Let's listen as he unpacks excerpts from his book, upskilling as voice interface designers, voice interface ethics, and accessibility.
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If you think about Alexa, Siri Cortana, a lot of these devices, you think about who the person is that you're drawing in your mind as you talk to this person. And you're generally thinking about a white woman who is potentially an executive assistant or in a secretarial, which is a very, very sexist way to think about a lot of these voice assistants and really is very, very striking. A very impolite approach or disrespectful approach to treating these voice interfaces that might give lead somebody to think that they can do that in real life as well with somebody who's actually human.
— Preston So
"Voice Content and Usability" is a book that will give you the techniques and insights you need to make voice content tangible—and talkable. Learn from the real-world example of Ask GeorgiaGov, the first-ever Alexa skill for residents of the state of Georgia and one of the earliest content-driven voice interfaces. Get your copy, NOW! Talk to Preston in person and know more about voice interfaces through LinkedIn and Twitter.
Priyanka — Hi! Welcome to QED42's podcast designwise. I am Priyanka Jeph and here we are with our 6th episode with Preston so. Preston could be introduced as someone who sits perfectly at the intersection between design and technology. He is a multilingual speaker and can speak more than 8 languages. He is an editor at A List Apart, a columnist at CMSWire, and a contributor to Smashing Magazine. Preston launched and led the Acquia Labs innovation center, directed voice-driven experiences for clients like the State of Georgia and Nestlé. Preston wrote the first and the only comprehensive book which acts as a guide to decoupled Drupal which was launched in 2018. He has also written "Gatsby the definitive guide" which is all set to launch in November 2021, He is currently with Oracle, as Product Strategy Director and today the prime focus of our book will be Preston's recently launched book which is "Voice content and usability". Let's get right to it then. Hi Preston, Welcome to design-wise. How are you?
Preston — Hey Priyanka. I'm doing very well. Thank you so much for having me here today on designwise, it's such a pleasure to speak with you today and talk about some of these amazing things that we've got on the agenda.
Priyanka — Oh! the pleasure is completely ours. So, Preston, the first, uh, and the most important thing that I would like to ask you today is about what we told the audience of designwise, that you've got this perfect balance between design and technology. So how did you get here and what is your story?
Preston — That's a great question, Priyanka and there's a lot of people out there I think that can identify with this sitting in between the worlds of design and technology is something that I think a lot of us have dealt with, especially those of us who work on the web.
I know a lot of people, not only who are part of QED42, but also who listen to 'designwise' are involved in web development and web design. I started out as a web and print designer, which means that I actually began my uh, venture into, uh, web design and graphic design through the print medium and through the web medium, I actually combined my interests in computer programming, which I started when I was very young.
Um, and my experience into beginning to work on web design, and I've really had the opportunity and the privilege to work on all sorts of different sides of the equation when it comes to web architectures, design architecture is especially on the web. Not only have I had my own independent web design studio which is no longer an operation, but I still was going to, I do have a new consultancy today that works on voice interface, design, and things of that nature, but I've also worked for agencies and, uh, consultancy is as well as, uh, the platform side of content-driven architectures as well as software products and SAS products.
So my story is very much an interesting journey because as you can see from the books that you just mentioned Priyanka I've worked on both books that are in the realm of technology directly, really focusing on things like how people build websites with Drupal or with Gatsby, but voice content and usability was just came out last week with a book apart is my first book on design and user experience and specifically voice interface design, which is an area that I've been wanting to write about for a very long time.
And I'm very excited about it not just because it is the first book on voice content, strategy, voice content design. It's also a book apart, my publisher, their first-ever book on voice interfaces in general. So it's a very exciting topic. And I think one of the things that's really difficult obviously is to maintain that equilibrium between the design and technology world. I think we all try our best. However.
Priyanka — So in your book, what is the course of content does it even cover pressing issues like privacy? Siri statistics reveal that it is the most used voice assistant among mobile users. Alexa being a multipurpose assistant has millions of users. Then there is google home, Microsoft Cortana and, according to Microsoft's study which talks about 41% of these voice assistant users are concerned about trust, privacy, and passive listening, so can design help this concern? Is Alexa hearing all our conversations!
Preston — That's a very good question, Priyanka. And let me start by using the case study that really underpins and serves as the foundations for my book, voice content and usability, because this really ties into a lot of the privacy issues that many of us have.
Um, you know, somebody that I follow online, I had the pleasure of sharing the stage with as well. Uh, Sarah and Watson has written extensively and done a lot of work on privacy in voice assistants and conversational interfaces that do operate in voice and, and how it is that we don't pay as much attention to some of these devices.
Um, potentially as much as we do some of the devices that are more visual or have screens. So ASK GeorgiaGov was the very first voice interface for the residents of the state of Georgia here in the United States and it was part of the state of Georgia's efforts to focus on some of the ways in which other people besides web users who might be using voice interfaces like Amazon Alexa or who might be elderly or members of disabled communities want to be able to access content through the georgia.gov website without necessarily incurring the cognitive burden or some of the barriers that come about when you're using a screen reader or you're using a website, um, and would rather use a voice interface that you can have a conversation with.
Now, one of the big issues of course, with these voice assistants is, well, you can certainly imagine situations where it's much more helpful, much more catered and personalized to that user's requirements or their needs at that very given moment based on certain traits you know about the user, for example, knowing their email, their location, their name, um, certain information that might be personally identifiable information or PII could really be useful to helping these, these voice interfaces conduct these transactions on behalf of the user or to serve information or deliver information or content that is relevant to that user.
However, the privacy concerns are very large. And I think, you know, in addition to the really interesting reporting you mentioned Priyanka that there's also the issue of the fact that there have been instances of which, um, Amazon Alexa has been heard to actually be recording conversations that it's not supposed to be privy to, that it's not supposed to have access to.
And one of the decisions that we made at the very beginning of the asked Georgia gov. project for the state of Georgia was to say, okay, we're not going to collect any information it's possible. You know, you certainly could do it. It's feasible, but because of the really big concerns and uncertainty around privacy, the very strong risks that a lot of these voice assistants have when you're potentially handing a lot of this data over to a large corporation, you don't know where it's going.
We opted to not collect location, not collect email addresses, not collect any information that's identifiable about that particular resident or user, even though we could potentially help them much more in a personalized fashion if we had. But I think this really comes into question when you think about all of the privacy regulations that are now coming about, um, not just in Europe and the United States, but also all over the world.
We now have GDPR. We now have HIPAA. We, you know, there's so many new approaches that I think are very important to keep in mind. We've just finished kind of this long process of understanding how privacy really impacts the user experience on a website. Now we're just about to begin the journey of how to understand those things in the context of a voice interface.
Priyanka — So, um, so what I've understand from the whole thing that you've told us that, you know, it's up to a good business, it's up to a designer or a developer to decide how much information they would like to record and, you know in order to be able to help the users. It's something that can be done, it's not that, it's something that can be achieved. So, ya right So the next question is back to basics and something that our audiences of designwise would definitely like to know more from you is what exactly is voice UX and what is the difference between designing for voice UX and on-screen experiences?
Preston — Sure, and you really captured it right there with that last little bit there, Priyanka so the, the thing I will say is that voice user experiences and voice user interfaces and voice interface design in terms of how we think about the universe of user experience today, and the world of design today is a very, very different island. It's really on its own kind of continent over here and one of the reasons for that is exactly, as you mentioned, Priyanka, there's a very big difference between the visual or physical mediums that we work in as designers like screens and mobile devices and wearable technology and televisions nowadays. Um, and the physical interfaces that we use on a daily basis as well, like, uh, computer keyboards and computers and video game controllers. All of these things that mediate our human-computer interaction are primarily tactile or visually rooted interfaces. Of course, voice user interfaces are very different because unlike written conversational interfaces like chatbots or text bots or WhatsApp messenger bots, for example, these voice interfaces, especially the ones that are pure voice interfaces, those that do not have any screen or visual component whatsoever are really unique because as opposed to having something that we can touch or something that we can see or point out or click instead instead It's entirely an interaction that is mediated through the the realm of speech, which means that all of the interactions that we have as users have to take place along the dimension of time and not in a dimension of space as Erica hall notes in her book, conversational design, what are the most important aspects of pure voice interfaces? However, it's also the fact that. Well, context. And what that means is you really don't have the capability to give a user, a visual rendition of a mental model. That is something that's memorable and works for them. For example, I can't give a user, a site map. I can't give a user, a navigation bar. I can't give a user breadcrumb links. I can't give a user even a link itself because there's no way to color, text blue, and underline it in a voice interface. So voice UX is a very, very thrilling, but also very challenging. Uh, area because we have to really remove ourselves as designers and user experience practitioners from the entirety of the world that we've been operating in over the last 50 - 100 years when it comes to these manual and visual interfaces towards more of these kinds of human, organic, and conversational approaches that really distinguish voice interfaces from the others that we work with.
Priyanka — Absolutely. So, um, another thing related to the same topic that our audiences would love to know is, how do you onboard like a new designer from onscreen to voice UX? How do they upskill themselves?
Preston — Absolutely, Priyanka so what I'll say is for those who are looking into getting into voice interface design, especially those who are already operating in web design and user experience design, I actually just had a question yesterday at a talk I gave from somebody saying, oh, should I do XYZ first, is there some kind of foundation I need, but the reality today is that okay, unlike 20 years ago or 30 years ago when designing voice interfaces really required you to have a computational linguistics degree or a very deep understanding of computer science nowadays, there are all sorts of low-code or no-code platforms that are emerging that allow for those who are much more comfortable in tools like photoshop, to be able to use a visual tool that allows you to build the voice interface or a conversational interface. Now, what that means with these, what you see is what you get or wizzy with tools is that nowadays, no designer needs to learn a technology, learn the particularities of standards like voice SSML or SML, um, to really be able to build a chatbot or a voice interface, which really makes this a very compelling new industry for those who are already very well versed in design, or also may not have really gotten into web design and my book, voice content usability actually very much focuses on this later trend that's happening over the past few years for a lot of these conversation design tools to not demand any technical approaches and for them to be more agnostic to some of these approaches, which means that my book doesn't focus on a single technology or a single approach, because all of the principles that I talk about for voice interface, design, like flow diagrams or dialogue writing, or usability testing, apply to all voice interfaces. Regardless of what technology platform you're building So my biggest advice is to find a use case, find something that's interesting to upskill your current toolbox with design and try out some of these tools that are out there, like dialogue flow or bot society, Oracle digital assistant that might give you the ability to design a voice bot or a chatbot that doesn't necessarily require you to write any code whatsoever.
Priyanka — Right. So, uh, this is an in-between question about the book. I mean, uh, comes out of the things that you said that you have all these tools and techniques that designers can practice. So when you were writing the book, I mean, when you thought of this topic that I have to write about this, which was mainly because you worked with this technology for a very long time so how much time did you take to write it and, and what is the process of your research.
Preston — My process when writing books is very unusual and I think this is really one of those things that, um, is a little bit tricky is that I really don't plan out things very far in advance in terms of the actual things I want to talk about the things I want to write. A lot of it is very stream of consciousness. This is how I write all of my articles in my work. I do have usually, some sort of an outline at the beginning, but the book itself really came together, um, through a general sense of what I knew I wanted to talk about in every chapter, you know, basically. Okay. Chapter one is going to be about voice content. Chapter two is going to be about actually taking that voice content into voice chapter three and four are going to be about dialogues and flows respectively chapter five is launching your voice content and chapter six is about the future or the, or the outlook ahead. And, um, you know, I think one of the challenges of course, is that it was during a pandemic and, uh, an ongoing pandemic of course. Um, and I do want to make sure to hold space for everyone that design wise, uh, listeners who are still dealing with this ongoing struggle of ours. But the general approach that I took with the book was just to devote as much time as I could outside of my normal workday to really thinking about these ideas and how I wanted to delve into them. But it's really tough. I think when you're writing a book at the scale of a book of this size to focus on the narrow perspective that an individual chapter has, as opposed to thinking about the big picture and how you want the entire book to go, because you can very quickly lose the forest for the trees or vice versa. Um, sometimes when you write a book and I know that, you know what that's like as a host of a podcast as well.
Priyanka — That's what, like, I think that there are a lot of people out there who have the talent, they want to write. Just that something stops them. It's probably the fear. So this question was really important for them to hear. Right. Um, so what are the things that, um, most people don't know about voice design, something, I mean, are there any unknown insights that you found out why you were working with voice design technology?
Preston — You know, it's really interesting you say that because I definitely think that there are some interesting insights here with voice interface design that are really interesting to keep in mind.Um, the first is that you know, I think that a lot of people think that nowadays, especially with all of these platforms emerging with so many new techniques and so many people getting involved with voice interface, design, that it's kind of a mature landscape that, you know, it's very much as well-developed as the web, but nothing could be further from the truth, uh, in that regard, because voice interface design is still a very, very age fields. And I'll share one example of this from the case study that we did in the book in asked Georgia gov for the state of Georgia. One of the biggest issues that we faced was actually not even the fault of the design that we. And, um, you know, I think one of the things that a lot of people who are web developers or web designers remember is that back in the early two-thousands or mid two thousand, there were a lot of issues with how browsers would use the code that we wrote in order to display certain things. Through CSS. And there were a lot of issues with things like quirks mode, compatibility, uh, box, model hacks, all sorts of things that a lot of us know from working in the web back in those days. Nowadays, of course, the web is so mature that you don't have to worry about any of those things. We're still in those early-stage years when it comes to voice interface design because one example of this is. We worked very hard on the voice interface itself and the application itself that ultimately ended up being an installable Alexa skill for your Amazon Alexa. And there was one result that kept on popping up in the logs and analytics and reports that we built for the Georgia DACA editorial team. And that was a result that kept on coming up over and over again in these 4 0 4 errors.Now, just to give the listeners a sense of what this actually can do is every single time you. With the ask, Georgia gov voice interface. You're really conducting a search across all of the frequently asked questions, content that's available on georgia.gov. So you can ask things like how do I renew my driver's license? How do I get a fishing license? How do I register to become a new. Um, how do I register for a small business loan? How do I register to vote obviously very important topics? Now, one of the results that kept on coming up returned an error, you know, so basically there were no search results returned. The user wasn't able to find any information or content relevant to this topic. Was this particular word, this keyword that kept on coming up in the logs as Lawson's as an L A W S O N apostrophe. Yes. And we had a retrospective about eight months after the. Uh, Alexa skill went live, and people started using it and we found that this really strange word kept on coming up. Why is somebody trying to search for this thing that has absolutely no relationship to anything that is in the state government of Georgia. We thought about it for a long time. And then suddenly one of the native peoples from Georgia in the room, who's lived in Georgia, all her life. If you kind of perked up and she said, oh, you know what? I think that might be somebody who's trying to say. Like driver's license, but it's in a very Southern or Georgia and, uh, dialect or accent. And, and you know, this is not actually the fault of the application. Right? Cause we did usability studies. We did all sorts of research to make sure that it would, uh, go well as soon as we launched it but this is actually an example of where Alexa fell apart or where Amazon fell apart because the underlying. Understanding the natural language understanding mechanism that Alexa was using was not developed enough yet to be able to hear, um, American accents that are not the same as the American accents that it was trained on and if you think about all of the different dialects that people have in English all over the world, you can see how this can become a very big problem very quickly. Now, the other big thing that I will say that, um, didn't really come as a surprise to me, but I think will come as a surprise to a lot of the people in the audience of design-wise and for this book is that I think one of the things that we often forget about. The world of accessibility for voice user interfaces is that voice user interfaces are really intended to accelerate interactions with content or with tasks and transactions that you need to perform. Um, but on the web, one of the big problems and disadvantages of the screen reader, which we use all the time to do this sort of work, is that it is fundamentally a visually worded. Which means that screenwriters rely on the visual structures of websites in order for people who are using screen readers or disabled people, to be able to actually interact with the web a user, you know, the the UI elements or the text that's on a page and so there's a voice interface designer named Chris Miller. Who has written extensively about this and says, you know, I never really understood why it was that people built Sweden meters this way, where it relies on the approach of the web design. In order for content to be delivered in a way that makes sense to the reader user, it should be the other way around. There should be a voice interface that allows for a much more efficient interaction and being a blind person himself. He has a very great, you know, good amount of insight into why it is that people should really think about the fact that. Well, screen readers are kind of the normal or the default way that many of us think about web accessibility, but it's actually still not that optimal or ideal experience for those who really want to be able to have an interaction with a voice interface as disabled users needing to access that content. So I think those two insights were both very interesting to me from the standpoint of, well, you know, voice interfaces are not so ready for prime time, as we think they're not quite ready to beat us at our own game of conversation at the same time. Um, there's also areas where voice interfaces can far outperform some of the things that we already have that are meant for accessibility solutions for disabled communities. So, um I think both of those insights might come as a bit of a surprise, uh, to some of the folks who are going to read my book and also listen to designwise.
Our fifth episode of ‘designwise’ is an honest and raw conversation with Devyani M Lal. Devyani is a design researcher and author of a soon-to-be-launched book ‘Design Thinking, Beyond the Sticky Notes’. In this podcast, we unpack Devyani's attempt to refute a few prejudices we carry when it comes to design, highlight the ‘uncool practices’, and how we as practitioners can improve design practice, design mindfully, and be more responsible towards our decision making while we approach problems penetrating experiences, services, and products. Let's Listen!
Subscribe to Designwise on Apple Podcast and Spotify.
"It doesn't matter which specialization, background, or expertise you have... it's about your ability to work together, tinker together, importantly fail together and get to a common ground and see from there. You build common expertise together. That was an eye-opener at the time...that's when I knew, it's entirely up to me to orient my design practice and hone my skills and even pick up new ones on the way".
— Devyani M. LaL
Design has been treated as a black box; it's been considered to be a closed group only for designers but, today design has traveled to various team members — from engineering, product management, marketing, sales, etc.
Designers should have uncomfortable discussions and face the tough questions about design and the responsibilities of their actions. The role of design amongst practitioners has evolved into the social model of creation that is hardly limited to just design on-screen practice today, through products and services, constantly striving to diversify and co-create with users and stakeholders. This means not only consider users’ needs, age, gender, and profession as primary design considerations but also multiple ranges of human diversity from ethnicity, disability, financial situation, education, sexual orientation, cultural motivations, religious affiliations, etc.
Priyanka: Hi and welcome to QED42's podcast, I am Priyanka Jeph and I'm a design writer at QED42. This is our fifth episode and the guest today on the podcast is Devyani M Lal. Devyani is a designer, she's a user researcher and author of a soon-to-be-launched book on design practices. Devyani has conducted many design thinking workshops and has traveled globally to carry out user research for various product and service designs. Today's episode will focus on Devyani's career journey and how she takes us through various notions of design thinking in her soon-to-be-launched book.
Priyanka: Hi, Devyani, welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Devyani: Hi, Priyanka. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. I'm doing well. How are you doing?
Priyanka: I'm good. I'm good. Um, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today because, you know, um, I saw you, like, completely immersed in textiles and garments and surrounded with clothes, while we were like in NIFT, and now you're like a well-known user researcher. You've been traveling across the world and identifying user needs. And I mean, your book is getting launched soon. So how did you reach here? What is your story?
Devyani: I was introduced to design back in the late 90s when I was in high school, and design was synonymous to fashion design and all of its grandeur and that initial thought sort of shaped my journey into getting myself into a design school. And I got myself into fashion and textiles. But then out there during the foundation years, we were actually introduced to the origins of design and otherworldly art movements and how design started at Bahouth, even that translation of a basic inspiration into a concept. And that concept is molded into a prototype. That's when the meaning of design sort of changed for me. And when the specialization began, that sort of definition of design became too narrowed and focused. And that aspect of pigeonholing myself as a particular professional designer in textiles, I was not okay with that at the time. And that sort of realization happened very early that this is not my calling, which was very different from my other colleagues who were very certain what they really wanted to do. You know, post graduation like they would see themselves working with some designer or in some design studio. And so, yeah, I already knew that I was not fitting in at that time. So once that happened, I knew that I had to figure that figure my way out. Right. So once I was out there, I was literally like a headless chicken running everywhere. I was open to anything in any project that was coming my way. So I dabbled into graphic design. I dabbled into content development. I even did short films. And so, yeah, like I said, I was doing everything. And that sort of opened my mind at that time, even though they're like there like two schools of thought who do not appreciate this waywardness in a practice, as they appreciate a more focused approach in your practice. So so I didn't know better right at that time. What I felt was that I should just dive in and just see how it goes to figure out what it is I really that I want to do in life. And yeah. So during that experiment phase, I was also pursuing competitive exams for further studies, and that's when National Institute of Design happened, which was like a dream school for me. And it was like a major validation at the time to even get myself a seat there. And that that was that what I would say, that that phase was like a breakthrough in my design journey, because even though I was in a battle, again, like, you know, you would expect, oh, it's in the middle of a master's. She's right there.She would have figured it out. Right. But no, that didn't happen for me even then. So I was again clueless as to what was going to be my design practice. But then the foundation was a very, very, what should I say, mind-opening experience. They didn't just teach us about design foundations. They actually exposed us to the fact that designers really make a difference and they actually have a purpose. It's just not merely built around aesthetics and just functions and how to make things look appealing. It was beyond that we were actually solving problems. And that epiphany sort of built my next series of steps. So even though I was in a misguided specialization of an apparel designer,post that convocation, I again dabbled with some projects, but this time it was more oriented towards research. Because I knew that this is one area that fascinates me and so so so there was this project by my senior, she was heading a research study with Qualcomm and they had designed these series of educational games for children in the age group of four to eight years now, college at first. But at the time we didn't know that then. And she invited me to be part of that is the user study me despite being from an apparel design background. So I was all in I was little. Of course, you are a little nervous, right? But then I got exposed to new research techniques. I got to know more about ethnography, something I just broadly, you know, browse through back at NID. And I got to develop protocols on how to conduct yourself on a field study when you're interacting with such a young age group. So that experience sort of built my core foundation. And that's when the epiphany happened. I do this is something that I can really do and pursue for a long time. And that's how I got myself into user research. And with that experience and and a couple of my research stints, I got I got the opportunity to become a lead at Tata Elxsi. And that was also an interesting experience because I was not only doing broader research that was product or service area, you know, related. It was it was beyond that I was doing research that was targeting public transit systems, research that revolved around healthcare and which was itself a global reserve, which is not just based on an India-focused study. So it took me to China, took me to Egypt, took me to Turkey. That was also an interesting experience in itself. So, yeah, that's where I am today. And this is my design practice, which is design research.
Priyanka: Amazing. I mean, this is such an adventurous journey. And I didn't know all of this. I mean, learning about all of this and realizing the fact that, you know, when you are open to design anything and you understand the true notion of design, the design is for creating solutions and it's not limited to aesthetics. It can actually inspire you to reach levels that you otherwise would not have thought of. So so devyani what I really want to know more about is what is your book about? What's the name of the book firstly?
Devyani: Hmm, my book is Design Thinking Beyond the Sticky Notes,
Devyani: Okay, And it means,
Devyani: it means, So I'll tell you how I came up with the name, so that sort of that's an interesting story to the name sort of came very early to me during this stage of book proposal writing itself, because I was kind of wrapped up with the fact that what it is really that I'm trying to bring on the table that has not been already said on design thinking. And so when I was doing that, being a design practitioner myself who has led and designed many design thinking workshops, I knew that we tend to get attached to the paraphernalia of design thinking. For instance, if you Google design thinking, the first stop image that would pop up is a room full of people surrounded with sticky notes and post its and sharpies, right?
Priyanka: Yes, yes
Devyani: So that's the image I wanted to dissociate my book with. And that's how the name came in, which is design thinking beyond the sticky notes.
Priyanka: Nice that's like, that's like a whole another concept. It actually happens like we've been made to, you know, put sticky notes in everything that we do. Oh, nice. So you were telling me about various workshops that you've done. What kind of workshops? I mean, have you conducted any specific ones that you would like to point out for us?
Devyani: Yeah. So besides design thinking workshops that I would design and conduct for various clients like, let's say Mercedes and Panasonic, who would want to get introduced to the concept of design thinking and how they would be able to apply it during their different stages of their design process or any creative process. So besides that, so I have to tell you about this. So you in the conference, this happened back in 2018. So that sort of began when I met Shaurya Rastogi, he's a UX designer and Meru Vashisht. She used to be my rock star research intern, but now she is a design researcher herself. And I met them when I was a lead designer and researcher at Tata Elxsi. So on a typical coffee session, post work, we were discussing about design and design practices and its aftermath. So Shaurya being a UX designer, would share his thoughts on certain design interventions that have happened in the areas of UX. So, for instance, a more deep diving into human-computer interaction or navigation and interfaces, what really happens and what happens behind the scenes when you're actually designing or coming up with a solution? What is it? What is the idea? So the idea is to basically make life easy for a user, right. To design a solution that is convenient for them. But then but then he gave an example like, for instance, if you're accessing some data on your mobile interface, the idea of just scrolling through is just mind-blowing right. Like it is so easy and it makes you makes the accessible. You can just scroll from one side to the other. And but then he pointed out that over the years there's been a harmful implication of this brilliant design solution. And that sort of put a seed in my head that maybe maybe we can have this open dialogue on where the responsibility of a designer really lies. Does it end after designing a design solution or does it go beyond that? So that conversation triggered something in us, and that's when I pitched the idea of mindful and practices at this conference, so and we designed a workshop around it by developing a series of methods cards on mindful design that we would like to present to certain participants and give them a problem, space or design statement and help them if they can execute these cards in a specific.
Priyanka: So what are these specific mindful design cards? Like, could you give us some examples?
Devyani: Sure , So Post that UX conference thing. I sort of picked these cards up and made them more focused and aligned so that they can actually be utilized not just in a workshop scenario, but even in a workplace setting where you actually are designing and debating on an everyday basis. So I, I developed these cards into basic seven categories, starting with, let's say the context setting, context-setting is is is like a go to right you have to develop a context before you begin anything? So that that category has many prompts that will enable you to have that important dialogue with all your stakeholders, not just you and your design manager or your other teammates. You can actually involve your client to be part of it. So to understand their implicit as well as explicit needs. Right. So now, of course, it has to be beyond the project scope or project brief. So that's what these prompts offer. The next category is called framing. You obviously need to frame your problem space better. It has to you need to know your why?. You need to know your hows. You need to understand all the stakeholders involved. And then comes knowing your audience. Like it says the name, it is about knowing your audience. You need to understand your target group. You need to understand your personas better. You need to understand the current behaviors. You need to, of course, be able to do that journey mapping better. But there is one interesting card that I would like to talk about is called Consider Extreme. So this card prompt allows you to actually consider extreme users in extreme scenarios while you are framing your problems. So it can't be just focused on a specific target group that your client wants. It has to be other extreme users as well. So it basically heightens your sense of empathy. And of course, being a designer, you are somewhat qualified to introduce accessibility in your design solutions. I strongly believe that. So I feel this prompt is really important in your design process.
Priyanka: I am so excited to read the book. I mean. I am sorry to barge in like that this accessibility and the empathy part that we really need to add and the clients also need to understand a part of it you know. So I'm really looking forward to read your book.
Devyani: Absolutely.
Priyanka: So so what are these like? Do you have any live examples of a certain scenario placed like or does it just provide frameworks for different levels and phases of design or there are specific examples of different scenarios that a user is going through?
Devyani: So, for example, when we were mapping this out, so there is another category called impact, so this is where this is an important category because we wanted the role of the designer to go beyond just devising a specific solution or just figuring out areas of design intervention. So this does these categories sort of give you prompts. It gives you triggers. It, in fact, enables more arguments that you can actually have with. So I'll give you the areas that we are talking about. So there is something called. There's a card called Discourse, Debate, Dialogue, so this sort of reloops you back in a conversation. There is also an interesting call, The Conspirator. So, for instance, if you divide it into two and this one is batting for a certain solution or a certain direction and the other one is batting for the other, the conspirator gets the power to play the devil's advocate and sort of take both these solutions through and figured out the alternatives and, you know, discard them. So it's a very powerful card for that person. So, yeah, so if you actually allow designers to play that game. Ok, so the gameplay sort of enables you to deal with these important and tough questions more easily. And that is what I was trying to achieve with certain cards. And there's also another interesting card called the Pro for stigma. So you will know that we are currently going through a very difficult social dynamic Yeah, so so there are issues where dissent has become a problem where so so So what I did was I was tracing how dissent, dissent is happening in creative ways across the world. So I came across an artist who is a French artist. He was actually just on the streets of Paris and he was barking constantly. He was just barking like emulating the sound of a dog or a wolf. And I'm like, literally like who? And more exaggerated. And of course, the audiences didn't know what the purpose was. So his purpose really was at the time, he did not agree with their leaders of their country harping on and on how global warming doesn't exist. So he was equating that with someone who has no idea whatsoever. But then he was giving more. A very interesting twist to the dissent, so I found that very interesting and then I figured, why can't we do that when we are designing? Why can't we ask this tough question whether we are getting any sort of prejudice against a particular race or community or religion or color while we are designing? So we have to revisit our processes with such tough questions so that that was one of the cards that I felt has been applied. And it's being applied these days wherein we are constantly rechecking. And if you like, you are already aware of Black Lives Matter. So that global movement triggered the entire world to rethink its resources. So even at Airbnb, so at Airbnb here in the in the US. So there used to be a hidden racist movement that was going on. Like I'll tell you, for example, if the host figured out that the renters were not white, they would not rent them their house or would not open their homes to these other users. And Airbnb, figured it out when they realized that this discrimination was really happening and that's when they did the intervention of removing that filter of race from that
Priyanka: So, they had the race filter before?
Devyani: Ok, yes, there was a race filter because because you could see the image of the person. Right. So they removed that, that even if you don't put your picture, the host has to give you their apartment based on your ratings and nothing else. So that was a right intervention they did at the time. So it is definitely being applied.
Priyanka: So this is an eye opening sort of a conversation. And it was why I would say again that I'm really looking forward to your book. So is this book any different from are you talking about a specific process? Is it inspired by design thinking or is it any different from these processes that we follow in most of our design projects and everything.
Devyani: So it would be unfair for me to compare all the books with already existing frameworks. So I saw this book sort of compiled a series of different case studies, a series of personal experiences by different practitioners that I have interacted with for this book. They belong to the domains of technology, design, products, services and even education and learning. So I wanted to offer a multifaceted and nuanced discourse on design thinking through this book. And and mind you, it is not a book that presents a specific design theory that could be presented in a room full of academics. No, nor is it a book like a how to guide young practitioners to learn how to apply design thinking. We Know It is a book offering an open discourse on design practices, design, and the complex relationship of design with people. And eventually, after all these simplified arguments and critique, we should be able to arrive at a specific but open ended mindset on design thinking. So that's what this book intends to offer,
Priyanka: Which is really nice. I mean, I've not heard, I read a lot and I've not heard about a book which talks so much openly about so many things that have been hidden for a long time and tapping on so many different things that we really don't realize, you know, because we have submissions to do, we have projects to do and we have deadlines to meet. But this can really change a lot of things for upcoming design projects and for designers as well as for CXO and other people. So you were saying that you had a lot of people involved in the book while writing the book. So So any specific person that you would like to quote, how did that person help you or getting the right or. Getting the right objective for the book.
Devyani: So for this book, I interviewed close to 35 people.
Priyanka: That’s a lot of people.****
Devyani: and like I said, not just yes. So I took this book as an experiment because I didn't want to just harp on my point of view. I wanted to make sure that I get to offer multiple points of views here. And so, yeah, like I said, these were not just practitioners in the field of design. They were also creative thinkers in the field of management, in the field of data, privacy, technology, and, of course, education and learning. So so I should tell you about this so young privacy advocate and privacy expert I met. I met her in San Francisco at some Diwali party at a friend's place. And she she kind of told me about certain aspects, certain big giants. I wouldn't want to name some tech giants that like to indulge in just because they want to sharpen their products and they want to make their lives easier for the user. But there is a lot of privacy infringement that is happening. And so she actually took me through a series of examples as to how these tech giants are sort of taking advantage of their users. And that sort of led us to having this conversation called a panopticon. Yeah. So so what is Panopticon? Panopticon is actually an architecture concept. It basically it is that there is a prison compound and in the middle of that compound, there is a high-rise star, a tower where supposedly the warden of the prison is supposed to stay and he gets a proper panoramic eye view of the entire prison. So the idea was that the warden is sort of keeping an eye on the entire prison and prisoners and their movements. But then the fact was the warden wasn't there all the time. But this was sort of a mind play on the prisoners thinking that they were constantly being watched. OK, so so when you were having this discussion, technically we are living in a digital panopticon society wherein we are equally part of it, we are being watched or we think we are being watched. So that sort of was an eye-opening organization at the time and of course I predated her for her thoughts in the book.
Priyanka: It was really great, you know, getting to know everything that you just told us and so many of these things that I definitely didn't know about. It was a great learning experience for me, this entire recording of the podcast. i really want to thank you for taking time to be with us. Thank you.
Devyani: My pleasure Priyanka. It was lovely talking to you. Thank you for having me.
Priyanka: So that was the conversation with Devyani. Do look out for a book ‘Design Thinking, Beyond the Sticky Notes’. It's going to be launched in July. The book will be available in India, United States, U.K. and obviously on Amazon. You can get in touch with Devyani if you want to know more about her book on LinkedIn and thank you for listening to us. This is Priyanka jeph in DesignWise from QED42.
Our fourth episode of "designwise" is an honest, raw, and real conversation with Tanisha Arora. She is a Senior Creative Strategist at "Purpose, a creative agency, and a social movement incubator". Tanisha designs strategies for under-represented voices and speaks with us about the emerging dynamic of design campaigns and their social and cultural impact. Tune in to hear the untold story of reassessing purpose and the timeless tale of adaptations in her career keeping the fundamentals of design intact. Let's Listen!
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Even during all these transitions in my career, I always kept my fundamentals in a place like there were some things that I would never change. I would never change my approach to working. My output would change. So I would probably be designing a jewelry store, you know, I would be designing a retail store, a window display to eventually designing experiential events, all of it. The output was different, but my approach always remained the same.
— Tanisha Arora
Designers have the natural ability to flip the perspective around problems from obstacles to opportunities, which makes challenges more exciting and proves to be a motivation to improve and grow. Still, career transition is a risk that very few designers make. In "The Timeless Tale of Design Fundamentals" Tanisha tells us about the risks involved when designers choose to change their area of specialization and how that change helps to grow as a designer while also contributing to our personal growth. She also adds that tools can be learned "don't wait" adopt new ideas and new ways to challenge the creative in you and go be that change. Try, process, and believe in yourself while keeping the same fundamentals of design in place.
Priyanka: Welcome to QED42's podcast Designwise. I'm your host Priyanka Jeph and I am a design writer at QED42. This is the fourth episode of the podcast and our guest today Tanisha Arora is a Senior Creative strategist at Purpose. Tanisha started her career as a Jewellery Designer with Farah Khan and moved on to do installation art, window displays, and visual merchandising. She has also done art direction, devised Creative strategies for businesses, Experiential marketing, Researched customer journies, and designed for User experience. This episode is focused on Tanisha's very inspirational career journey including a very interesting trip to Antarctica. Let's hear what she has to say to us about the risks involved when designers choose to change their area of specialization and how that change helps to grow as a designer while also contributing to our personal growth. Hi, Tanisha Welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Tanisha: Hi. I'm doing well. How are you?
Priyanka: I am good. You have had a very fascinating career journey and no journey like this is complete without struggle and inspiration along the way. So, What is your story? The story of the challenges you faced and how did you overcome them at each phase of change?
Tanisha: Thank you so much for this lovely introduction. But yes, I would love to share the story of my career transitions that have happened over the years. As you know, when we were in college together in NIFT, I was specializing in jewelry design and that's what I did for the four years when I was there, and post that I basically got an internship with Farah khan, fine jewelry. And I continued to pursue this journey and this profession for another two and a half years while I was with Farah, but yeah, you know, I think throughout college as well as during my time at Farah khan, I, I think I kept questioning whether this is the right thing for me because I don't think my job ever fully made me happy. I just felt like there was probably something else for me. Maybe I'm at the wrong place. And I did continue for two and a half years with Farah khan did that, but then kept questioning. And then that's what I did. At that point. I started, you know, maybe it's time to start exploring different occupations. And I started applying to different companies and different colleges because I was like, maybe education could give me some more direction. So that's what I did. I started applying for colleges. And at some point, I think I realized that even though I have dedicated six years of my life to jewelry, I have to at this point cut off and explore what I actually want to do. And I think, like me, a lot of people felt that at different phases of their careers that maybe this is not it and they should explore something else. So at that point, I was I was working still with Farah and I was doing window displays for a store. And I realized, though, that I absolutely love doing retail spaces and and I love doing art installation. So that's something that made me realize that maybe that's something that I should explore in the future. But while I was doing that as well, I was applying to different colleges. I had been applying for almost a year while still working, and I managed to get admission to a called college. London College of Fashion. It's under the umbrella of the University of Arts. And for me, it was always like a dream to study and do my master's in another country. And that was a dream only because it's the most expensive thing to do. And I personally did not have the funds to fund my education and do my master's. So what I did was that I constantly applied for scholarships or at least in different colleges and different places. But I finally landed getting Tara Nirula Scholarship. It's something that is given to one girl in India to go and pursue their master's degree. And I was just absolutely fortunate and I guess lucky to get that scholarship. And that sort of allowed me to travel to London to finish my master's degree there. And it was an interesting experience that was a different phase of my life because I had left behind jewelry and I was doing my master's in the Fashion business and understanding strategy, understanding business. It's a completely new facet and experience because it it's very different from design, right. Because you're specializing in the thing that's so different from what you're usually used to doing. And I feel like all designers should understand that side of things, too. Like how does the business work and how does the strategy work? Because it's just sometimes not enough to know design. And that that opportunity almost gave me, you know, opened up this avenue when I was studying there. I was also exploring the streets of London, which are so rich in beautiful window displays you have Selfridges there, you have all the inspiration under one roof for a retail space designer. And it sort of solidified my belief then I was in London that maybe I should pursue retail design. Maybe that's something I would love. And I kept doing that. I did like a side project in London where I did a window display on Oxford Street and alongside. I also took up a side job because London is the most expensive city in the world. And to survive in London, you need to get a job, essentially. And so I worked as a bartender alongside. I went to college, I did projects, but I also worked as a bartender and, you know, just surviving the London poverty that they say. So that was my place in London. Soon after that, I came back to India. It was pretty clear that this is this is what I want to do. And I started applying. I got a job in Bangalore and I moved to Bangalore that where I worked with restore design. I worked for almost four years. They're just designing retail space strategies to visual merchandising, to storytelling, to art installations, everything that was. I thought that that's what I would love to do. I got the opportunity to learn that. But most importantly, those four years in Bangalore, it really, really taught me how to work with vendors and how to work with clients. And it's a whole new skill set in itself, right? Like just people management and working with different types of people in the industry. So that was exciting and that was an incredible experience in my life. So that was that was Bangalore for me. I did that for four years. I later moved back to Bombay and instead of doing retail design, I started exploring event design, a very similar profile. But I was just doing more experience design for brands rather than retail stores. And yeah, I mean, it was it was a great job. I was working with a company called seventy EMG where I was designing for the biggest brands such as BMW, Facebook, Nissan, like all the automobile brands, to you know the best brands that you can. And that's what I did, that that was the last job before I moved to Purpose. And I talk about that a little later. But that's been my transformative journey over the last few years.
Priyanka: This is incredible and What i love the most about what you told us is the transition you endured. It's not easy, it's hard right. So, What kept you going during these transitions and do the fundamentals of design change with each transition?
Tanisha: I think I think the hardest one was when I had to move from Farah khan to basically change from jewelry to any other industry because that's the first time you're doing it. And I don't think when you're doing it for the first time, it's not like you're questioning everything. Oh, my God, I've invested six years of my life in jewelry. Will I ever be able to get that amount of experience in any other industry and how hard it would be? So it's really like scary the first time. But when I did it the first time and I realized that I can adapt or into another profile profession and just keep my fundamentals in place, it works beautifully because it is definitely uncomfortable, because you're new to a lot of things that you don't know. So you have to learn a lot. You have to skill up a lot. And but besides that, I that was the first time I realized that it's OK to make that transition. And if your fundamentals are in place, you can mold yourself into a new environment. So for me, I think if I can explain five things, even during all these transitions in my career, I always kept my fundamentals in a place like there were some things that I would never change. I would never change my approach to working. My output would change. So I would probably be designing a jewelry Piece to, you know, I would be designing a retail store, a window display to eventually designing experiential events, all of it. The output was different, but my approach always remained the same. And I mean, if I have to explain what my approach is, I would probably break it down into five pieces. I think the first thing would be that I always, always push myself to think out of the box and think of the craziest ideas as possible. And then you can basically apply that anywhere, whether it's jewelry or space design or like experiences. Just if you can think out of the box, you can apply that anywhere. So it's really important to be bold and brave and not stop yourself there. The other thing would be over the years that I developed was the art of storytelling. I think it's the most powerful tool for telling your stories, telling your audience stories, and making it very relatable to the audience. Right. Tools such as like, you know or you don't illustrator or you don't know the software. That doesn't matter. You can learn that. You can skill up. But these are skills. This is the most beautiful skill. I think if you can learn how to do stories, you can grow in so many different ways in any design industry that you're in. And yeah, another thing would be like I always made sure that I would learn to put myself in the viewer's shoes. So if I make a piece of work, I always want to think about how is the audience perceiving this or how is the audience interpreting it or experiencing it? So these are very important things because you may have a lot of context as a designer when you're making a piece, but the audience may not have that much context. So it's very, very important to always have that filter at the end where you explore that, OK, is it coming across as strongly as you believe it does? So, yeah, that's very, very important. I think the last two points for me are one is that I always, always keep your voice up. Voice your thoughts. I've seen a lot of designers who shy away from saying what they need to do, and that's necessarily not a great way or because it's very, very important to speak up, so to speak out your thoughts, your opinions on design in general and I think the last one would be drawing boundaries, I think over the last ten years I've realized one thing is to learn to maintain your work-life balance. you know As designers, it's extremely hard to cut off from you know your piece of work that you're so, like in love with and you're making it. But it's also important to learn to cut off and like do something else by the end of your day, go for a run, go ride go do something. But like, learn to maintain that point of cut off even when you're working, no matter what job you're working, whether you hate it or love it, just learn to cut off and maintain a good work-life balance. So these are the couple of fundamentals that I keep and that never changes. But my output may change depending on where I am, which company I'm working for. Sorry, that's a very long answer. So that
Priyanka: That was brilliant and this certainly will reach out to a wider audience because what you said was not confined to one particular design specialization it covered to process for most and will inspire and speak to most designers. This also says that risks are there but if you want to move from one specialization to another "DO IT" don't let the tools and other challenges scare you because if your fundamentals are in place and your design process has clarity "you got this". So right now you are working with "Purpose" which is a global social impact organization" as their creative strategist what are your roles and responsibilities.
Tanisha: Yeah. So just a brief introduction to Purpose before I get into what I exactly do. So we are a global social impact organization. We have been in India for since 2015 and we work on various issues from air pollution to mobility, renewable energy to gender, as well as sexual and reproductive rights issues across the country. And what truly makes us different from other design agencies or other organizations is that we truly focus on social impact projects. So we're working with you know different NGOs, foundations, different brands, but we are only working with people who truly want to make a change and create an impact because that's one of our really, really important filters in terms of the kind of people we work with. And yeah, so we are just like a bunch of these incredibly amazing campaigners, strategists, creators, idealists all from all corners of the globe who are just working towards this one mission to make the world a more open, just habitable place. Right. So that's that's truly what we are all working towards. So this is what purpose is all about. What I do at purpose is that I work as a senior creative strategist and essentially I creatively lead on different projects. And like I mentioned about my past, where I've transitioned from many different professions, it's been like in phases of my life. but at purpose, I feel like I'm transitioning my profession every few hours, literally. I mean, it's literally funny because I almost work on three or four different projects at the time. And on one project I'll be probably designing the user journey and interface design of a website. And on the other project, I'll be conceptualizing and curating an activity such as street art or installation art. And I will be like figuring out, OK, who are the right kind of artists to bring on board? What is the bigger vision that we need to achieve, guiding them, working with them to make it happen? At the same time, there are projects where I'm simply making like graphics for social media posts, so there is no small job or big job. Your everything is so important and everything is everything has a purpose to it. It may be a drop in the ocean, but it's it's always contributing towards making an impact. So, yeah, that's what I do. I like doing different roles every few hours and I'm transitioning every day. So it's a very multidisciplinary kind of profile that I have here.
Priyanka: Well, You have invested your time in learning so many new things that handling multiple responsibilities at one time is definitely one of your many strengths. So, moving on How does design or the process of design contribute to a social cause?
Tanisha: And it's really important, right today, you know, you have this whole social sector who is working towards creating change, but now they are realizing how design can make that communication stronger, how it can make the story stronger. So there's this whole realization of how important design can be to make an impact happen. So keeping that in mind, that's what we do. So, for example, giving you one quick example of a project that I'm doing in Bangalore, it's called Bangalore Moving, where we are trying to make or reduce you know pollution and traffic congestion. And we are doing that by making cycling and walking more popular and a more preferred means of transportation and how we are doing that. Is that a very simple example? I can give you that we're working with a bunch of 15 artists, street artists who are doing graffitis across the wall. And and with that, they used art as a medium to uplift the streets of Bangalore. And when you do that, like when you're using art as a medium to uplift streets, you're naturally making it more pedestrian-friendly and cycling-friendly and more approachable and more safe. So that's how we're using art and design to sort of inform our work in the social sector. That's one example of how we do it. But as a as a creative strategy here, I am working with a different type of people and working with artists, musicians, designers, filmmakers, whatever it takes to package the messaging in the most powerful way. So design essentially helps you to do that. It makes it more powerful.
Priyanka: That's Interesting and what are other projects that you have handled at the purpose and how does it feel when you see people experiencing the impact of your designs?
Tanisha: I feel like especially this Bangalore project has been so beautiful because even when it's it's ongoing and it's going to be ending on 15th April, but it's an ongoing activity on the ground. And it's not just impacted in digital numbers that we can capture, but the impact on the ground is beautiful because, you know, you're seeing a lot of the community welcoming these artists and they like, you know, welcoming them home, feeding them. It's like beautiful to see how the communities are realizing the importance of art and design to uplift spaces and how that can sort of make it more or, you know, or walkable and pedestrian-friendly. And we are we're basically this is one example. And another example would be that we recently did an art installation in Bombay, which was which is called a glass station, Mumbai 2.0. It's it's this beautiful piece that's been made by one of our artists. Tyrel And that that art installation essentially captures how, you know, flooding how like, you know, cutting down trees and all these things are just going to add to the flooding and the problem of flooding in Bombay. If you think about it, Bombay is one place which where flooding has happened constantly, like it's been happening year over year. And there needs to be more action that has to take place by the citizens, by the government, by everybody together, collectively, where we need to take action to stop that from happening and we used design. We use art installation. We use different ways to make people realize that, you know, so we created an art installation in collaboration with the "Kala Ghoda" Festival. That's one of the biggest festivals in India, in fact, in terms of art and culture. And we worked with them to curate this piece and the smallest little things, you know, you the other day we saw that a mother and her children were actually standing next to that art installation and she was educating her kids about how you need to plant trees to avoid flooding and how the city needs to be protected. And that in itself is like an achievement. Try to put a piece of art out in the public and it's being acknowledged by the public and it's being like, you know, a constant reminder of what needs to be done and the global action that we need to take.
Priyanka: I am glad that you could share more about your work with us. Work that Involves diverse participants and stimulates change while also collaborating with various communities. So, as we end with a very intriguing conversation I have one final question for you. You probably have a lot of stories to tell from your career journey, which one would you deem as the most special, inspirational, and close to you?
Tanisha: Ya So here is the thing like I, I found out about. Sir Robert Swan, he's he's the person who leads this expedition. I saw his ted talk. It's one of the most inspiring ted talks I've seen in my life. It's highly incredible. And everyone must go watch that ted talk because it's really good. And I saw that I think in 2011, maybe like back in the day when it was launched. And I was so inspired by him and I knew someone who was planning to go for the expedition and they were working in that sector. So that person was working with the renewable energy sector. So it just like it made sense. But like as a designer, I would always say that, oh, why would they take me? I am not the right fit for this. So like five years went by and I kept thinking that, oh, no, they will never take me because I'm a designer. Right. But what I did is this one year I decided, OK, you know what? I'm just going to try it, because the fact that I got my scholarship to study in London sort of made me change my approach to life. I started thinking that if I try, then it's at least I gave it my hundred percent. I may not get it. It's all right. But I always wanted to try. So I ended up applying for it and I actually got accepted to be on the ship. And I was just amazed. And I was I was supposed to be the only designer on board at that point. And this was 2017 when. It was it was very interesting because I got accepted for the expedition in November 2017. And and I think by December 2017, we had like the demonetization and everybody was like nobody wanted to part with their money. Like everybody was so possessive. I like um the biggest point there was that I had to raise funds, i had to raise funds, I had to raise ten lacs rupees to make it happen and go on this expedition. And that was the part that was the most challenging. Right. So the demonetization happened and it was the hardest time to actually ever raise funds for anything. And I basically put up a fundraiser website. I approached 60 brands from my network. I got rejected by most of them. But then I got Farah Khan Fine Jewelry, as well as Pepe jeans London, who agreed to sponsor me three lacs each. And yeah, so they they agreed to fund me. And in a time where India was in a difficult time. Right. It was demonetization. And so they actually backed me, believed in me, supported me. And after that, I could raise some funds from crowdfunding. I broke some of my own savings and and that more than Antarctica. I think it was that whole experience of getting there, like raising funds, believing in myself, and actually trying and applying for that expedition. So that was the biggest learning part. But I think Antarctica in itself is beautiful. It was the best experience of my life. And it was also a transition point for me because after I came back from Antarctica, I realized that I had started questioning what I was doing in design as well, because I kept thinking, OK, I am designing for brands, but I'm feeding into consumerism. And is this it, can I do something better with my skill set of design, and that's how this whole expedition actually was a turning point for me, but I started questioning. I didn't transition immediately, but eventually, I found this job at purpose, which lets me do that like it lets me do meaningful, impactful work with design as a skill set. So yeah!
Priyanka: There hasn't been a part of this conversation where I haven't said to myself "Wow" there is a lot to learn in here and the Antarctica experience inspired through ted talk by Robert Swan is like a powerful message to believe in yourself and try! Thank you, Tanisha, We are really glad that you agreed to record with us on "Designwise"
Tanisha: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on and good luck with your podcast.
Priyanka: So, that was the conversation with Tanisha Arora Opening up to us about the basic fundamentals of the design process and her experiences of a very bright and true-to-life kind of a career journey. Thank you for listening to us this is Priyanka jeph in designwise from QED42.
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"The strength of the design sprint is the people that are involved in it, right, everyone comes from a different background, somebody is from the operations team, some come from the sales team, somebody is from the data analytics team. They all come with their specialized skills and get involved in understanding the problem from the lenses of their respective skills, it's getting the skills utilized in the best possible way. That's why I feel like having all these skilled people involved in this and the stakeholders involved in this process is key to having a good design sprint".
— Jyotsna Gupta
Design sprints are the fastest way of developing designs and solving problems. The work from home environment is becoming more human-centered to solve the problems faced every day. The work cultures across the globe are shifting. Jyotsna tells us how her team refocuses and emphasizes the importance of communication, collaboration, quality leadership, and flexibility. The conversation here is coupled with the possibilities facilitated by "Agile Design Sprints" for ideation and grooming of human talent and digital products as a reaction to the challenges and opportunities of working from work.
Priyanka: Welcome to QED42's podcast Designwise. I'm your host Priyanka Jeph and I am a design writer at QED42. This is the third episode of the podcast and our guest today Jyotsna Gupta is a Senior Product designer with ZypTv. The story of her career gets as interesting as it goes and fits today's transformed dynamics of remote work. Today she will be speaking with us in detail about key shifts and innovations happening in today's most relevant topics, which are working from home, team management, and conducting online design sprints.
Priyanka: Hi, Jyotsna, welcome to the show. How are you?
Jyotsna: Hi, Priyanka. I'm good. How are you? It's been a really long time.
Priyanka: I'm great. Yes, it's been really long. I think the first time we met was in 2005 and definitely around 2009.
Jyotsna: Yes. That's right. Almost 16 years, right? Wow, I'm old.
Priyanka: No, no. The only thing here is we go a long way.
Jyotsna: I know, I know.
Priyanka: Okay. So what have you been up to? Tell us something about yourself.
Jyotsna:Sure. So currently I'm working with ZypTV, which is a startup here in San Francisco. I've been with Zyp for the longest time, I guess four years now. ZypTV recently got acquired by Sinclair Broadcast Group and I'm working here as a senior product designer/design manager. I've been working with the team for a while now. As you know, we started our design career basically together at NIFT so that was the beginning of seed of design and the foundation of it. From there on I went on to work for Export House, did a few freelancing work, did a lot of graphic and print development, and from there on moved on to becoming a design faculty at the university for the bit. And all this previous experience that I gathered really made me think more towards the shift of industry, graphic design, and how it was transitioning towards more of a digital platform and how the products were being used so that's when I decided to pursue my master's at New York University in Digital Media Design and do my specialization in User Experience.
This was the time in New York when I worked on many different projects for different stakeholders, help them in designing different platforms. And I would say this was the time when I really got into the aspect of understanding what a user is, what user research is, how do you conduct these interviews, do usability testing, basically understand the nits and grits of a user experience process, the designing process, but also be able to work with these stakeholders and understand and develop designs from scratch. So that was a great time of learning for me. I worked on different projects for Crozier Finance, Box Butler, did a project for Samsung as well. Also did my internship at the New York Hall of Science and Access Technology in Dallas so there was a lot of smaller projects, bigger projects that I was heavily involved during these three years. And then I worked for Sotheby's Institute of Art as well as a product designer for a while.
All this time I realized that I had a lot of experience with different industries and technologies and so I was happy to do that and learning about different users and different clients and working with different stakeholders. But I also understood that I wanted to focus on one particular technology and also one particular industry and that's when I decided to come to Silicon Valley and moved to Bay Area. And now I've been pretty much with Zyp since then. It's been a pretty exciting journey so far which comes with its own ups and downs but then I would say I've really enjoyed this experience and I'm learning every day as we go. And especially this last year for us, it's all been crazy as we've all never experienced a pandemic before. So this is what is going on in my life. And I've been really happy and really lucky to be working during this time when people have lost their jobs as well so really grateful for that. Also, I got to spend this quality time with my 17-month-old daughter working from home all this while so I've been really happy doing that. So yeah, that's how it's been.
Priyanka: That's been a great journey. I loved hearing the part where you said you're a faculty. So did you enjoy teaching?
Jyotsna: Yes, I enjoyed it immensely. And I never thought that I would get into teaching but at that time I would say it was really interesting because there's something about not just design but there's also the idea of how do you solve a problem and then how do you impart that knowledge of design and concepts to your students and be— It feels like you're a part of something that's really special when you're teaching. And then when they do come up with their different innovations and their own concepts, it's amazing to see that getting through. So yeah, it was a great part of my experience which I think really helped me decide on doing my master's and decide in pursuing what I really wanted to do. So yeah, it was a really important part of my initial years.
Priyanka: Mm-hmm. Sounds about right. So, Jyotsna, you also mentioned about the last year and the pandemic and you working from home with a 17-month-old daughter who's really adorable. I've seen her.
Jyotsna: Thank you. So is your son.
Priyanka: Thank you. So what I would like to know more is that remote working has its own numerous benefits but people are still struggling with the Zoom meetings and there are parenting distractions. So how do you manage working from home when you're a parent or the integration of work and how it inspires you to do better and be better at work?
Jyotsna: Mm-hmm. That's actually a great question. And I feel we should definitely talk more about this everywhere and really normalize these distractions that are caused by babies or pets during your Zoom calls and meetings because really, we are all human beings here trying to do our best with what we have and this pandemic has really thrown that curveball in front of us. And teams are understanding people more, they're empathizing more because they're going through the same emotions, they're going through the same struggles as us. So I think it's something that's changing but obviously, every change takes time. But I definitely think remote work comes with its own challenges. There is no segregation between work and home. It really becomes a thing where you're actually thinking about work 24/7 and then working more than eight hours on a daily basis so it's a challenge for sure.
But I also feel like for me what worked was because I was always working in a remote team since some team members, my team of designers and some engineers sit in Russia and other parts of Europe. So I've always been okay with working remotely and it's worked good for us because we get our work done in a very smooth and in an effective way since we have these difference of time zone. But what works wonders for us is the Russian team works in an MSK time zone but then they work from 2:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. That's their schedule. So that works really well with our schedule because we are able to do our first half of the day. We can do those calls and conduct our sessions, Design Sprints, and all of that. And then I get to spend the other half of the day gathering all the feedback from the clients, the stakeholders, and do all of that part. And then the next day we meet again and discuss the session that I had with the findings that I got so that means it really works well for us.
And I feel like there are so many tools right now that we have that makes all this communication and all this a success. I know some parts in the world we have issues with the internet but luckily, our teams don't face that. So in that context, we are lucky enough. We've got great tools to work and communicate to each other. Slack is one form of communication that we use on a daily basis. Anything that we're discussing from vision or any idea or any concept and any comment on a particular design or a feature that we have so we use Slack for that. But then we have Jira that we use that's basically an Agile Sprint that we go through. All our stories and tasks are assigned on Jira so we are tracking that there with all the UI mock-ups and prototypes all attached to it. And Confluence is again Wiki is another place where we do all the documentation that we need to for the particular feature or a product that's going on. And then Nero that we use is for whiteboarding. And then there's InVision and InVision Freehand, which is again, used a lot for our Design Sprints and general activities as well.
So all this remote work works for us because we understand each other, we understand our issues, and we understand the problems one faces, but then we are comfortable and adaptable to all situations. So we know sometimes the team's morales are down or something some person is going through, personal stuff, we give them that leeway and then adjust to meetings, schedule these meetings, if not or reschedule these meetings depending on how everybody is. So we have that kind of freedom to us attached to all this remote culture that we have. So everything has its own challenges but then you got to live with what you have and then make the best of it. So yeah, that's what we're trying to do here.
Priyanka: All right. So what I understood from the whole conversation that we just had is that productivity has actually become a focal point here and there are more and more tools being developed and there is more innovation around technology and it is facilitating more collaborative processes, keeping teams more connected and more engaged in projects. So what I would like to know more from you is what are the processes that you follow? Is there a certain way that you guys come to a conclusion? You mentioned Design Sprint so can you tell us more about that?
Jyotsna: Sure. So as you talked about the tools, we have different tools that we use. For a design team, the basics are there. We use Sketch, there is Figma, there is Zeplin that could be used. So there's a lot of different design tools that we already use. There are the Slack as I mentioned and there are other ways that we communicate with one another. There's also Overflow.io that we use for creating these user flows and any IA or site maps that we need to create. So these are all really helpful tools that we use for our day-to-day basis. Yeah, Design Sprint is something that was developed by Jake Knapp. He wrote a book about it that's basically how to solve big problems and test new ideas. What he suggested was a four to five-day process for multidisciplinary teams. In our company, it's more of sales teams, the ad operations, the product team, analytics, data, and the engineering team. And then for the testing phase, we involve the clients and the customers to that, to the last day for testing all the new ideas that we conducted during these Design Sprints. So in a general basis, it's a four to five-day workshop but since we work heavily towards Agile and Scrum environment, we've cut down the process to a three-day Design Sprint.
So Monday is usually dedicated for understanding the problem and ideating. First half of the day is all about understanding the challenge, defining the problem, and then the long-term goal for the project and mapping exercise to identify all the user pain-points that come along with the journey, and then identify a target area for that particular sprint. The same day, we also do sketch. So once the team has a good understanding of the problem, the top-rated, the top-voted how-might-we questions and then target the focus to that particular area, it is that time to generate the solutions then so we sketch the ideas on paper. So every team member has a different skill, a skill level, so you have to understand that as well. Our sales team or ad operations are not great level designers or doodlers so they might use just pen and paper to come up with a particular idea. Some people are comfortable with using InVision Freehand tool, some people use Miro so there are different ways of how they're sharing their design ideas or solutions or basically their sketches. And then once all of that is done, we usually use which is a very general method that is the Crazy 8 method, which basically means coming up with eight different ideas in eight minutes. So everybody comes up with eight ideas and then everybody gets to share their ideas.
On Tuesdays, because this all takes the whole Monday, on Tuesday everybody presents their ideas and then we decide and vote on the best ones. Once the best idea is decided and voted upon, we do prototyping. That prototyping is more majorly done by designers and heavily on that side. So after Tuesday, Wednesday is the time we spend most of the day testing these ideas with the clients and the customers. So what works really well for us at Zyp is we have our own ad operations team and they have access to other clients as well so we get to share our ideas and prototypes with them. And it's a very iterative process because they're very quick with their feedback. So once we get those feedback, we try to involve that and do a quick iteration of the changes and then finalize on the solution. So this is what we do on a basis of a three-day sprint.
The next two days are then because it's still Wednesday and then Thursday and Friday are more aimed towards grooming and planning because all the idea that was proposed now needs to be put into a story in Jira and then shared with the engineering team. So one day is taken for grooming and the next day is taken for planning those stories and sizing them and then preparing the product backlog and the sprint is ready. So when Design Sprint works together with the Scrum and Agile environment, it brings the design activities into the Scrum development process and it also helps for the whole team to actually think more in a design-driven way and follow that process and also build the feature backlog and solve the right problem within the context of the user. So the user is put on the periphery here. And this Design Sprint can also be done for you know, there are MVP products and then there are your regular legacy products and you can do it for both of them.
For MVP, what we do is you basically start with Sprint Zero to kick off the project to reduce the uncertainties and then the outcome of it provides the team with a shared understanding of the overall project vision and builds a strong alignment within the team and all the relevant stakeholders so there's one common vision that everybody's seeing through. And it also builds the team initial product backlog. So that's how it works. And then every other week that is to maintain the two-week Agile Sprint, these Design Sprints are conducted. So this is for MVP that we do but for ongoing projects or the legacy products that you have, we can use these Design Sprints to discover new features or redesign existing features in between releases or Scrum Sprints. It also helps in reviewing the project vision; renewing it and also reviewing it and making sure that we are working on the roadmap and also make the adjustment to adapt to the change in the market. So we have to be very adaptable and understand that, whatever product because technology is changing every day. And so we have to make sure that what we are doing is at par with the industry. So yeah, that's how we basically work through a Design Sprint.
Priyanka: Okay. Having understood the process, I've got a detailed understanding of how exactly it works and what is the outcome of the whole process of Design Sprint. What I would like to know more is what are the challenges that you face when you're you know, you said that you manage the team, you work as a design manager as well apart from your job as a senior designer? What really bothers people is giving feedback, remote feedback. How do you process that? How do you give feedback in such a way that it is positive, it is nice? And what are the main challenges you face while conducting a Design Sprint?
Jyotsna: Not just as a design manager but as a leader, you have to understand that everybody will have opinion. And especially as a designer, you have to be prepared because everybody thinks that they know design. You put a question in front of a person and then everybody will come up with an idea. And you have to understand not all ideas are great so there has to be a balance. But also, you have to make sure that you hear everyone and we do that. So based on whatever feedbacks we get, we'd always you know, we like to listen. We listen and we understand that this is something that makes sense based on the product roadmap and the vision that we have and also understanding the user's pain points. So when everything is put in context and aligned with and there is feedback that makes sense, we will use it. But if there is feedback that is something that's talking about XYZ stuff that is not relevant to the point that we are trying to focus on or the feature that we're trying to focus on, then those feedback are just skipped. Yeah.
Priyanka: So how do you motivate your team members remotely to align on the same? Is there something special that you were—?
Jyotsna:Yeah. We do a lot of happy hours. What works with us is we have a Russian team, they love their vodka. So we do these happy hours, we try to keep everybody's morales up. That's something that we have to make sure that's happening, making sure that everybody's kept happy. We do a lot of one-on-ones as well. So personally, I have a team of four designers with me so I try to do my bi-weekly one-on-one with them. So that helps to keep that conversation going, understand if they're going through certain problems, or just generally chat with them because everybody wants to be heard. And then having that conversation, even if it's half an hour or 20 minutes, once in two weeks or whatever, that makes them feel heard and that also makes them feel happy that we're always talking to each other and then communicating so that's really helpful. And then sharing pictures with each other like your families, sharing your highs and lows, and so talking through.
We have our own Slack channel. A baby section of Slack is devoted to your babies and then there is a section of pets of ours and stuff like that to keep everybody excited. So you have to do different things. We've also tried a lot of different happy hour sessions. We try to do a Netflix Watch Party as well. So there are things that you would try to do and then work through to keep everyone happy and I think most of it, it will usually work. Sometimes people are not happy so you have to hear them out, listen to their problems and sometimes those are legit problems and you have to work through them.
Priyanka: Okay. So you mentioned you have the specific Slack channel for kids and you have a specific Slack channel for pets which is a really interesting thing. I've not heard about this before. I don't think it's very, very common. So can you tell us about those little moments that you share or while you're in the meeting and Aria is right there next to you? Do you have any positive and negative experiences around that?
Jyotsna: Oh yeah, there are tons. Every day Aria will make some noise behind me so it's become a thing that people know. I have a daughter; I have a 17-month toddler who's running around the house doing her thing so that's become a normal thing. But then sometimes it is a challenge because sometimes there are stakeholders' meetings and you have to be present, your video has to be turned on, things like that. And especially now with Zyp transitioning towards Sinclair Broadcast Channel and we're having this acquisition going on, things are changing as well. For us, it was more of a startup culture that we were so used to, and now we're getting into a bigger company and then that's changing so the rules also change. And then we're trying to figure that out as well and then adapt to that situation as well. So initially, we had our Zoom meetings where we made sure that people can be comfortable in however you want to do these meetings. Even if it's video off, we're fine with that. But now it's changing and now every time we have a call, we want the video to be on so that becomes a challenge.
And me, especially as a mom, I can talk for myself. As a mom, I'm trying to multitask here so sometimes I don't feel like a video-on call is helpful to me. So what do you do in that case? So I can talk about something. Last Friday, I was on a call, a 12:30 p.m. call, and that's the time when actually, Aria sleeps, and she fell asleep on my lap and the call started. So I was like, what do I do now? Should I turn my video on or just keep it off? But then I'm like, why not? So I turned my video on and she was sleeping on my lap. And so there are things that happen on a day-to-day basis and you have to make sure that you are doing what you can the best way but then also make sure that the other person involved also sees that effort. And then, yeah, so nobody had a problem. In fact, they were all appreciative of the thing that I do on a daily basis. So, yeah.
Priyanka: All right. What I would like to know more about is you've shared the entire process of conducting a Design Sprint and you've shared your entire experience and framework working with us, which is really, really valuable information for us and are audience. But what I would like to know more about is on our ending note, more about Design Sprint, the Agile process, and or could you share an experience with us that you faced while conducting a Design Sprint?
Jyotsna: Oh. If you asked me one experience, I think there are so many different experiences with Design Sprint. I can talk about one experience where the sales rep who was involved was not understanding the whole concept so when we gave a little bit of information in the beginning because we always try to make sure that everybody's ready with the tools that they need before the meeting actually starts, he was not prepared. So he came unprepared. He did not have access to Miro. So he did not download the app, he did not do a lot that was needed before the meeting starts. So you have these kinds of experiences. And then, because you don't want to waste the time of others trying to onboard this guy in the system of the workshop, we had another team member help him online but then separately. So while we already started the process of the workshop, he was still getting trained on getting all the tools added to his laptop and getting that fixed. So things like these happen but then it's you have to be quick and adapt to it.
Like okay, think through it and then make sure that nobody's time is wasted because everybody's here as is. A lot of companies are not comfortable devoting a Design Sprint on creating these product features and stuff like that. The idea is still new to them so you have to make sure that everybody and all the stakeholders are kept happy and given the importance that they deserve. And then sometimes you have to make it work. So yeah, you can't be wasting time of everyone because there are like 10 people involved in these meetings and then if one person is not ready, that doesn't mean all the other nine people have to wait for them. So yeah, things like that happen but I would also talk about some good experiences of the Design Sprint. I think these Design Sprints are obviously helpful for understanding of new product features and stuff that we do on a daily basis whenever we are doing an MVP.
So right now we are working on our new product and that's a minimum viable product that we are going through so that's really helpful. But then I also think that Design Sprints are helpful for any new hires that you're having. Any new employee getting onboarded in the HR system also should be going through these sprints because it's more of a workshop where the new person can get involved with the teams. They can talk through, they can understand other people, and they can also understand the product and then also meet everyone. And this process becomes a very light process because it's like they're involved, they're also contributing with their own ideas, and they feel their motivations are up because they're also contributing and then they feel that they were part of something useful. So I think these Design Sprints are very helpful and I have received a couple of feedbacks from our new employees, new hires as well, that these Design Sprints were very helpful for them to just have that as an onboarding process and also getting to know the team as well.
Priyanka: Okay. So I am taking more time than I told you from you. I'm really sorry but it's just getting very interesting. And on a last note of what I would really like to know, what are the key strengths of a Design Sprint if you have to note it down in five points? And why should everyone follow this process? Why would you recommend it?
Jyotsna: The key strength is the people that are involved in it I would say because everybody's coming from a different background. One for us is somebody coming from ad operations team, somebody is coming from sales team, somebody is from data analytics team. So they're all coming with their own specialized skills and all of them involved and understanding of a problem, once they understand the problem and everybody is thinking through their lenses. So once everybody thinks through their lenses, the solutions are going to be legit and all these solutions will solve that problem. So whenever somebody is thinking, they're thinking with their respective skills, and that's why these Design Sprints really work because then you get those ideas actually done. It's getting the skills utilized in the best possible way. And you have to also understand that all these ideas that they come through, they're not designers. So they might come up with an idea which on paper makes sense but then when you have to design it, you need to involve the designers on it. So they can come up with the ideas but then eventually you are the one who's actually creating the solution. So that's why I feel like having all these skilled people involved in this and the stakeholders involved in this process is really key to having a good Design Sprint.
Priyanka: Okay. Thank you, Jyotsna, for your time, and thank you for sharing all this valuable information with us and I've had a great time listening to you. Thank you for taking out time for Designwise.
Jyotsna: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure and I hope I was able to give some good insights.
Priyanka: Yeah, Jyotsna. Don't doubt that for a moment. It was amazing knowing everything that you said on the show.
Jyotsna: Thanks, Jeph. Thanks for having me.
Priyanka: So, that was the conversation with Jyotsna Gupta covering key insights about design sprints and a very honest take on working from home. Thank you for listening to us this was Priyanka jeph in designwise from QED42.
Powered by innovative thinkers, influential leaders, and creative networking platforms, switching careers is becoming safer via slow and steady progress. This change is not about perfection but realistic progress or slow changes that improve over time. This change is for happiness and contentment and something that we will get to see more with the changing definitions for work integration at home.
The second part of the podcast moves to Design Thinking, a process of change, a process that helps to innovate, strategize and create. Design thinking — a user-centric methodology that uses techniques borrowed from the designer toolbox, such as empathy, to generate innovative solutions and unexpected approaches to particularly difficult problems. Its value stems from its ability to innovate not only at the level of products but also it's capacity to forge new ideas and reimagine business operations and management models.
In this episode, we unpack the key elements behind design thinking and talk about conducting remote workshops and how successful they are in converting concepts into strategic actions for businesses. Let's Listen!
"Design thinking is not something that can be only used by designers, design thinking is there from a long time and all the great innovators in different sectors like literature, art, music and, business have practiced it. The good thing about design thinking is that you can systematically extract information. You can teach things, you can learn and apply human-centered techniques to solve business problems in a very creative and innovative way".
- Prabudha Agnihotri
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Priyanka Jeph: Welcome to QED42's podcast designwise. I'm your host, Priyanka Jeph. And I'm a design writer at QED42. This is the second episode of the podcast and our guest today, Prabudha Agnihotri is a NIFT graduate in fashion and lifestyle accessories. He switched his career from designing physical products and entered the digital world of design and landed in microsoft as a UX Designer.
At present, he's working with ServiceNow as a senior UX designer. And we'll be speaking about his interesting journey today. We'll also be getting in details of design thinking, a process of change, a process that helps to innovate, strategize and create. Hello, Prabudha, welcome to the show. We're really happy and equally curious to know more and more about you. How are you?
Prabudha Agnihotri: Thank you for having me here. I'm good. How are you?
Priyanka Jeph: I'm good. Thank you. Um, so Prabudha the first question that comes to my mind when I speak with you is, you know, how did you arrive where you are as a UX designer? Would you like to tell us more about that journey?
Prabudha Agnihotri: Yeah. Um, I started my. Design journey with my bachelor's in NIFT, uh, which was in fashion and lifestyle, accessory design. Uh, initially I was working, uh, in leather accessories and products where I did accessories for some time. And then I got into leather surface treatments where I worked on carpets, uh, leather tiles. Furniture and other and many more leather products.
And it was really interesting because, uh, leather as a material is very interesting, because you can do a lot of things. You can do a lot of surface treatment and you can create a lot of texture onto that you can create a lot of, uh, surface modeling you can do, and you can. Use it in multiple products.
So it was very interesting, uh, where I worked and later on, I shifted into titan industries, uh, where I was working as a watch designer. I also did some of the trophies for some events. So it was really interesting because there, I got to explore different materials. I worked with ergonomics and sketching.
Uh, research was an integral part because I was working in Sonata and it was a low cost. Segment product where, uh, it was very important to know what users want. And we used to go to different parts of the country to understand what our users are actually looking for. What are their ambitions, what is their motivation?
So, um, that was another very interesting thing where I was able to use the knowledge I earned from the college and apply it into the product. And after that I joined Microsoft as a UX designer, and recently I've shifted to service now, and I'm working here as a product designer in UX space.
Priyanka Jeph: This is a very interesting, uh, journey and I would like to know, like know more about it. So how did you make that shift, you know, from the physical to the digital enterprise product?
Prabudha Agnihotri: Oh, yeah, that's, that's really interesting story because when I was working in Titan, I worked on a side project, uh, which was later turned into a startup and the idea was, uh, Disrupting the fine art market, because what is happening in country is that there are a lot of good, fine artists and they make amazing artworks, but they are not able to sell.
And I was thinking that probably I can create a market digitally where they can bring their products and sell them. Idea was really good. Probably I didn't have the right experience and I probably, I was not, uh, ready for that. And, but the good thing happened in that.,thing that I was exposed to UX as a field.
And the reason was that I was creating my own application and website and I met developers. I met a lot of people who were working in the UX field. And when I actually got to know about UX, I realized that this is something which I want to do and I found my fit. And I thought that this is it, this is what I want to do. So that's how I shifted from products to, uh, UX design.
Priyanka Jeph: That's nice. So, uh, what was it like, what was your experience to work with enterprises and how did it help you grow as a designer?
Prabudha Agnihotri: Yeah, and, uh, so when I joined, uh, UX design as a, as a profession and I started working, that was a transition period for me.
And there was a big learning curve as well because, uh, working in UX design is quite different from working in the product design industry, because, uh, you have to first know the product. You have to know the rules, you have to know the tools. So there are many things which I had to learn, which I was aware of, but many of the things you learn when you work on actual projects.
So there was definitely a learning curve, but. Uh, the good thing was that I was working in the service design segment where I was solving the real business problems and in that I got to work with different sectors like healthcare manufacturing, retail, automobiles. I also worked on some of the government projects and the, the type of work we were doing for different sectors was very different.
Although, uh, the process was the same, but. And there were different business problems and there were different solutions required because you cannot do the same things, what you were doing for government projects and for a conglomerate or for a corporate. So every time it was a new challenge, which was really good because every challenge was teaching me something and.
I also got a good exposure in the enterprise world because I attended a lot of seminars. I gave a lot of workshops, attended a lot of UX events. So basically it was a, uh, I would say a 360 degree development for me. And, uh, the benefit, uh, Of working in this service design enterprise industry was that I was applying the design thinking and design thinking was something which I learned in college, but never knew how to apply into a real product.
And this was the time when I was, uh, looking at it, how it was done and how, uh, the P colleagues of mine were doing. And then, uh, slowly, I also picked it up and I applied in multiple projects in solving real business problems, understanding what, uh, Empathy is how design thinking can be used in different types of challenges?
Uh, and there were a lot of mentors on that road who helped me. So, yeah. Uh, that's how I developed this skill.
Priyanka Jeph: So, um, as you said, like you've learned and you think design thinking is one tool that can help you solve a lot of problems. So that's what I want to get into next. Why do you think design thinking solves problems?
Prabudha Agnihotri: Yeah, that's, that's a really interesting one because, uh, Design thinking is something which people think it can be only used by designers, but that's not the truth because design thinking is, is actually there from long time and all the great innovators in different sectors like literature, art, music, um, business have practiced it.
And the good thing about design thinking is that you can systematically extract information. You can teach things, you can learn and apply human centered techniques to solve business problems in a very. Creative and innovative way, uh, clean in business, but also in your life for your country, for your, uh, Organization, you can solve problems.
So, and it's a very hands-on way of working, uh, where you meet people, you understand what their real problems are. You understand, you empathize and you ask questions. Basically, you get to the real problem. Not. Uh, surface level problem. So you go into the root, you understand where the problem is, then you apply the human centered techniques and, um, you apply empathy and that's how you get to a solution.
If you see, there are a lot of big names in the industry who have applied design thinking and they have grown like anything. Like Uber is one of the examples where Uber actually, uh, got in touch with their customers. Understood they are. Basic problems. And, um, one of the examples is that earlier people would have had to struggle a lot to get the change, to pay the drivers.
And then when they applied design thinking to the problem, and then they, uh, brought up the digital payments in their application. So that's how, uh, companies were growing, uh, through design thinking. And those are some of the examples which I can give, um, Although there are different methodologies people use in design thinking.
Uh, some people use UX lean canvas uh, where they have given a canvas based on the book. Uh, their theory is basically based on the book of Eric Rayes, uh, the lean startup and they have come up. Uh, with that lean UX canvas to, uh, solve business problems. Another way to do is, uh, jobs to be done, which was by Clayton Chris Denson.
Uh, he was a Harvard business school professor and, uh, he helped McDonald's to solve their business problem and how they can optimize their business. So that is also one of the ways to do that. Another way of doing it, which was vibrators and in school, uh, where you can. Uh, understand the business problem you diverged, and then you can wish for a problem statement and then you, again, are diverse towards solutions and then, uh, get, uh, converse to, uh, to one or two solutions for a problem.
So there are different ways of doing it. People choose it based on challenge, based on the environment and based on the team. Um, I think, uh, uh, All, all are very important in their own ways and all they are very effective. Uh, it depends what people use. And I personally prefer a double diamond mostly because it is, it works really well for me. Uh, and it helps release all the business problems.
Priyanka Jeph: Okay. Um, so the more I listen about it, the more I want to know. So how do you exactly implement the process of design thinking during a project and also at enterprise level? Like, what is the process of actually implementing it?
Prabudha Agnihotri: Yeah, I can, I can probably take an example of one of the projects which I've worked on, uh, when I was working in Microsoft and, uh, it was with one of the biggest conglomerate in the South Eastern Asian country and the, the problem which they gave us was that they wanted to increase their revenue.
Now, if you ask. Uh, as a designer to me, can you solve this? I will be blank about how I can increase revenue hammer design, where I can design something good on a paper or probably on the screen, but how can I increase your revenue? And this is when, uh, it is important. When I said that understanding business is very important for a designer, because if, as a designer, if I understand what business is, then I can probably solve complex problems and problems, which are not, uh, You know, we'll say directly that design something.
So when, when this problem came to us, uh, increase revenue. So, we thought about how we could do that. And again, the thing which strikes to us was, uh, design thinking is the way to do it. So we had a team of different people. Like I was from the design team. Then there was a project manager and there were people from tech teams, uh, engineering, so that they could help us with what we should actually do.
So we went, uh, to the country and met the people in the organization. And then we realized that first we have to align with the stakeholders. So basically stakeholders are the people who were, uh, giving us this work. And we want to understand from that, that, uh, is it the right problem we are solving or not, or why do they want to do it?
What is their motivation? What is the vision and what, what, what is the purpose they want to do it? Is there just money-making or there are other hidden agendas behind that or what they actually want from us. So I think the stakeholder alignment in the design process as a first part, where you go and understand what your stakeholders want.
Once you understand that, then you go into the process of design thinking. So when I was solving this problem, I used a double diamond where we took this business problem of increasing revenue as well.
Which is what we did. We did a lot of research where desk search was the first, uh, milestone for us, where we researched on cultural trends, we searched on economic trends, external internal trends. Like, if I talk about culture, why culturally, because every country works differently. Things which are working there probably will not work in Russia.
Right. So it is very important to understand the culture, why people do what they do. So. The first thing was that we will do the desk research. We understand we'll get some understanding and then we'll go into the field. So we did the cultural research. We understood the economy because if you're talking about revenue, that means somebody has to pay to increase this revenue.
So it was very important to understand how the economy of the country works, how much people earn, what are their spending habits. So we did a search on that. Then we understood that, uh, what are the technology trends? What other trade trends. And is there any recent event happening in the country or what is history, uh, So we, we decided on all those things and the best practices, who are the competitors, what are the rules and regulations of the country?
Is there any law which, uh, which is coming in the way? So we researched all of those things and we came up with some conclusion that these are the things which can, if you've worked on this weekend improve, but again, our desk research is. A secondary research, not a primary research, probably this was done by someone two years back, three years back and all the scenarios have changed, but this gave us some perspective.
So as a next step, what we did, we did the field research. Uh, in the field research, we actually met real users, uh, around 30 customers. We met and we did the interviews. So in that, the outcome of that field research was to understand the stories, because everyone has a lot of stories. And in those stories, people talk about their pain points.
People talk about their motivations, their ambitions. So that was the. Main thing, which we wanted to get out of that because we also wanted to validate what we learned in the desk research, as well as we wanted to understand what the customer wanted. So field research really helped us. And that was the point where we understood who all our personas, what are the main problems people are facing.
So we made a list of all those problems. Problems, uh, basically the problem statement. And then we, uh, we, we, we basically did an exercise where we thought that, okay, if these are the problems, how much effort will you give and how much, uh, Money. We have to spend so basically effort and money both on those two dimensions.
We understood that there's one problem. If we solve, we will be spending less money and we'll be creating more revenues. So that's how we came up to one particular problem statement. And that was a time when we converged. So that's how, if you see. The double diamond, the first diamond was closed. And then that was the point where we thought, now we have to be diverse again, to understand what solutions we can provide, because from the business problem, which was increasing revenues, we reached a problem statement where we had to improve the sales service. That was the problem statement. We came up with that. If we improve the sales service, we will be able to get more revenues because that's what we learned during the interviews that, uh, the sales people were not good enough. They didn't know about the product. So they were not able to provide the right information, things like that.
So we reached a conclusion that this is the problem we have to solve, and then we did a workshop, a design thinking workshop. Now this is a very important part. I believe in the design thinking process because this is where you get to the solutions and you understand what is important for the users.
So, um, a design thinking workshop is nothing but a workshop where you invite people from, uh, different. Age groups, different, um, sectors of the life, different income groups, basically your personas, you invite them in a small group, like six to 15 is the ideal number. And then, uh, we create this, uh, basically we have to prepare for this workshop because when you are inviting people, you are asking for the investment of their time.
And time is very important. Time is money for people. So. It should be very well planned. And if it is very well planned, then you will get the solution that you're looking for. So what we did, uh, that if I have to explain this, I'll probably go into four different, um, uh, topics. But before I go there, do you have any questions in between?
Priyanka Jeph: Um, I was just all this while wondering that it's like a very intricate process that has been followed in, uh, since, you know, we've, we've shifted completely remote. How are you actually managing these workshops? And, uh, are there any challenges that you're facing? Are you able to conduct them and, you know, get results the way you used to get it before? Uh, how is it happening now?
Prabudha Agnihotri: Yeah, that's, that's a really interesting question because, uh, when this pandemic started, we also had to face this problem because we were very well-trained or doing workshops offline, but then pandemic started, we couldn't move from our places. And then the industry was also, uh, You know, shifts really fast because as soon as it happened, there were few tools were available, but that came into, uh, use a lot because if you see zoom is something which, uh, gained a lot of popularity, uh, teams is getting a lot of popularity because of this.
So similarly there was a tool called Miro which we use for the workshops. And I would say that the ground rules have changed, but, uh, the, the crux is still the same. Earlier, we used to think about how we can, uh, well prepare for four different senses of humans, like smell, what kind of smell should be there in the room, uh, what kind of food we should serve so that people don't sleep in your full day workshop and. Things like that, but when you're working offline, you don't have to worry about that, but there are other challenges that come with that. That, uh, is the internet connection good. Uh, is the room noise proof, um, are people putting their phones on mute or not? Uh, do they understand the, uh, etiquettes of online calls?
Because it was not. common for everybody. Um, probably people who work in it industry, they understand it, but not everybody. So these are some of the things, uh, which we have to deal with. And those were some of the challenges. But, but if I, if I go back to the discussion, which I was having, where I was talking about the design, uh, that double diamond and design thinking.
So, um, whether it is offline or online, I think, uh, crux is the same, the ground rules are different. So. Uh, coming back to the discussion where I was, uh, we were into the create group where, uh, we were looking for solutions. So, uh, whenever we do these kinds of workshops, we basically, uh, first. Plan. And then we prepare for the workshop.
Then we run the workshop and then we close the workshop. Now I will talk about all the four pillars. So what happens when we, uh, plan a workshop? So first we have to understand what the topic is. So, uh, we already had the topic that we have to improve the sales service now, who are the right people for this workshop.
So we invited very carefully the people who can help us, uh, which were the customers of, uh, People who recently got the job, people who were experienced and were buying, uh, another, uh, such product or from different life of, uh, people we were inviting in that workshop. And then what is the size, how many people would you like to invite?
Uh, how much time would you like to give? Will it be three hours, half day, full day. So that is very important to plan. In advance. And what kind of activities will you do? When will you give the breaks? Uh, what is the purpose? What is the presentation style? Will, will it be digital? Will it be, uh, physical, uh, what kind of materials will we use?
So all those things are very important for planning and then comes. Uh, the preparation, uh, one day before, probably, or a week before we had to decide the space, but nowadays it's, uh, either zoom or teams. What channel would you like to use? Um, then you are basically ready with everything and you are over-prepared because in the workshop, there are people who are coming there and giving you your time, their time and.
If you are not prepared, that's not good. So you have to be over prepared, even if it is online or offline, because online also, if your internet connection is not good,probably you will not be able to do it. So what we do is we, we are always ready with two different internet connections so that if one doesn't work, another one is there for backup.
Similarly for the city as well. If something happens with electricity, we have the power backup ready because online, if you lose the connection, you lose the context many times. So that is very important for preparation and. Then, um, earlier we, we, we also used to prepare how far we should go, the washroom so that people don't go and vanish.
So now if you see it, that is also one of the benefits of this, that people don't vanish because they have to come back after five or 10 minutes, they cannot go out anywhere everybody's locked. Uh, so that that's one thing. And then what kind of, uh, material you will need earlier, we had to use. A lot of material, we have to invest a lot of paper, but now I think, uh, it is really nice that digitally, you don't have to waste any paper.
You can do everything on the miro board or on some tool. So that is also one of the benefits of doing it, uh, online. Uh, I also think that, um, When, when you do it digitally, like these days we are doing the good thing is that earlier we were not able to reach all the places. Like if something, some places are too far, or if there are restrictions, we are not able to travel there.
And then we used to ask some other team members to go there and do this workshop. So there was a problem of that sort, but online, you can write to anybody and you can do that workshop. So that is a good thing about running it virtually. So those are some of the things. And, um, we then come to the third part where we run the workshop.
So basically what we do is we set the tone, we set the expectation that what we want from this workshop. And we start with our intro in the agenda, what we are going to do, how the activity, activities, our plan. And at this point, basically we want to know what the journey of this customer is, how they are using the product.
And during that we understand and empathize that, okay, these are the problems. These are the things which we were not doing wrong, or we were doing wrong, or right. So we validate all those things. We ask for solutions from, from customers, if they want, what kind of a way they would like to handle this problem.
And we get a lot of good ideas in that, based on that we ideate and create things. Um, we also time track because again, even if it is. Virtually or physically it is very important to time track that too. It is so that you finish everything in time and entertaining people is very important. So, uh, when, when we run workshops, we make sure that we do some fun activities.
Also from time to time because, um, If it does a job, you will do it because you know what you're doing. But if you are coming for a workshop for you, it can be boring or it can be stressful. So we take care of that. We entertain people, we take pictures, uh, And nowadays we take screenshots and we leave some time for discussions that people can talk about things, what, uh, things they are understanding or what other ideas they have or if they have any conclusions.
So, uh, we always leave some time for discussion and which actually brings up a lot of, uh, insights to us. Uh, in the workshop, the important thing is to use a non verbal communication style. But now again, when we are online, uh, the rules again have changed. So we have to probably interrupt at times and we have to pause.
We have to change tone. We have to comfort some, uh, participants because it can be overwhelming for people. So those are some of the things we are doing and trying to maintain the same level, uh, virtually as well as, uh, When we were doing it offline. Uh, so those are some of the things we take care of. And, uh, so yeah, when, when we did this workshop, we got a lot of insights in this whole process.
And, as the last process, when we're closing up the workshop, uh, participants started summing up what they learned and what the industry, and they again gave us, uh, some. Uh, you know, uh, again, points and things to which they were thinking were not right. So we got a lot of, um, uh, Process related things.
We got a lot of pain points. We had a lot of ambitions, what people had. So those were some of the really good things. And then, um, since we are doing it virtually nowadays, so we don't have to digitize anything earlier. We used to take pictures of all the posters and everything, and we used to sit and write the art to digitize it so that we don't miss out.
So that is again, one of the benefits I think we have doing it virtually. And then we just, uh, send, thank you note and secure next time slot, because what happens is that in this workshop, we got a lot of information from the users and customers. Now, after getting this information, what we will do with the art.
So we, what we do is we take two days and we do some quick mock-ups. And that's what we did in, in this exercise also, where we got a lot of insights. Then we did quick mock ups in two days, and then we invited these people again for two hours. And we showed those mock-ups to these customers and asked, what do you think now?
Because they gave us a lot of information and it was our responsibility now to give them back something and we showed those mock-ups and they were really happy because they could see, uh, those mock-ups were solving their problems. And in return it was increasing the revenue for my customer, because if the problem is solved, they will do it.
Uh, word of mouth, uh, promotion, and they will come back. There will be a return customer. So if more and more people are coming to my shop or obviously my revenues are going to go up. So in this focus group discussion, uh, these customers gave us a lot of, uh, uh, Feedback again, that we can change a few things.
We can add things, we can probably remove a few things. So we did that and then, uh, we sent them back and we sat down again for two weeks and where we, uh, took all the feedback, took all the, uh, insights and created a better version of those mock-ups. And that was a starting point for us where we. Uh, in, in, in this whole process, we came up with one solution that if we do, uh, then probably we can solve the problem that you had earlier.
And then we presented it to our, uh, stakeholders and they were really aligned and happy. And then we also give them a roadmap. Uh, if we want to succeed, we have to do these 10 or 15 things in the first round, and then we can do a few more and a few more. And that's how we will grow as a product and as a, um, you know, conglomerate or as a corporate.
And then we will solve the real problems and we will get more revenues. So if you see, It took a lot of time to explain that, but it was really important to explain because, uh, The problem was a very straightforward business problem. Increase my revenue, but how the design process, and how design thinking helped me get to that solution was really interesting. I believe.
Priyanka Jeph: Yes. Uh, I completely agree. And, you know, after being touched by the pandemic, our ways of working might have changed, but the intent remains the same to understand the users and to grow business. And it is not possible without following a process that has the best design thinking.
Our Listeners are probably. And they for sure have learned a lot through what you had explained, and it was really nice of you to explain the whole process to us. So this is one last thing that I would like to understand . Um, you know, uh, does it also play a process like the design thinking process? Does it also play a major role in innovation and the product development process?
Prabudha Agnihotri: I definitely believe that because in any, uh, development process, you have to go through. Oh, sorry. Then activities and design thinking is one such beautifully crafted, uh, way of doing it because, uh, first you understand.
What the problems of their customers are. And then you try to come up with solutions. So I believe whenever innovation happens, it happens with design thinking and keeping in mind, because either you do it directly or indirectly people go through those steps where they understand, they empathize with the users, they understand their problems, their ambitions, based on that, they come up with a solution and, and, you know, uh, come up with that. So I believe design thinking is the key, uh, to innovation and product development.
Priyanka Jeph: Okay. Uh, thank you for that information. It was really insightful. Everything that you especially mentioned about the workshop, the way you mentioned everything in detail, that was, there were a lot of insights. The key insights that I took and I'm so sure that the listeners. I also took a lot of key insights from this. Uh, we're really glad that you took to time to speak with us and thank you for being on the show.
Prabudha Agnihotri: Thank you so much Priyanka, it was a pleasure for me.
Priyanka Jeph: So that was the conversation with Prabudha, which was nostalgic, expressive and focused on organic experiences about making a switch in career, implementation of design thinking and conducting life and remote workshops. Thank you for listening to us. This was Priyanka Jeph in designwise, from QED42.
Designwise Episode 1
"Research is an extraordinary process that enables functioning and an understanding between the people and the creators. It allows us to rehearse it and, in the process, also helps us to deploy it".
Research is a medium to understand the evolving needs of the people. Brands must focus on research to win minds and market share, well not just that! There is more to it, experienced creatives are actively using user research to shift perceptions and encourage empathy. The hope is to increase the understanding of people to address their true needs.
Our first episode of "designwise" is a real, raw, and honest design conversation with Shivani. From the experience of being a designer for over twelve years, She tells us about, how do designers advocate the need for user research? How does user research address business needs? and why should we all adopt user research as a groundwork for every design process? Let's Listen!
"Being a product designer my work definitely fits inside those digital screens but every action is so much more related to those real-world emotions and what exactly user experience is and It sounds really cliché, but the ability to impact other people's lives and make it easier is so much more gratifying and I truly love it".
— Shivani Aurora.
Subscribe to Designwise on Apple Podcast or Spotify.
Priyanka: Welcome to QED42's podcast Designwise, I'm your host, Priyanka Jeph, and I'm a design writer at QED42. This is the first episode of our podcast and our guest today, Shivani Aurora, who's a product designer at Workday as of now, has led various aspects of design, starting from research, strategy, interaction to visual design and today she'll be talking to us in detail about user research and how to apply research to business needs. We'll also talk about the need for user research, for a good digital experience and what it means to her as a designer. It is a pleasure and I'm really excited to create the very first designwise podcast with Shivani, Hi! Shivani, Welcome to Designwise.
Priyanka: I'm absolutely looking forward to this conversation because, you know, we go a long way since 2005 and also because I loved our pre-recording conversations about how important design is, the value of user research in the process of design, and I'm sure our audiences are going to learn a lot from you. So having said that, how are you?
Shivani: Thank you so much, Priyanka. I am doing very well. I hope you are doing well, too.
Priyanka: I'm good as well. So, ya, let's begin with your experience with design. How has it been with you over all these years?
Shivani: Yes, sure, I can give you a little quick introduction about myself, so I am a product designer working at a company called Workday in California. Before that, I was working at a design agency in San Francisco for last three years. I would say an experience, I think, which was very varied because I was working for different clients, different company sizes, but equally rewarding. And before that, I was doing my masters in digital media editing, which I did a year-long fellowship at Microsoft as a civic tech fellow. Again, a very interesting experience. I think I think that's pretty much been my recent stint.
Priyanka: That has been a very interesting journey, what, what I would like to know more is how design has added value to all these yours and what does it mean to you?
Shivani: A big question I feel, though, well design, I feel to me is having like an incredible power that I think can touch and impact, people's lives in so many different ways. Right. And I feel my role or anybody's role as a designer today is so much more important than ever before because every aspect of our lives today is so deeply connected digitally. I mean, what other way to see the impact and the power than this unfortunate pandemic that we are experiencing right now? I feel my mom, who has never, ever used an app for shopping, is now ordering groceries online. She's having literally Zoom Sessions and she's celebrating birthdays virtually, which I feel all of these moments for somebody like her or anybody her age could be really defeating and tiring you know if that digital experience or interaction is hard for someone and beat her or anybody of any other age or experience, I feel like, at least for me as being a product designer, like my work definitely fits inside those digital screens, but every action that it affords is so much more related to these real world emotions. And what is that user experience is at that point in time? And I mean, it sounds really cliche, but just the ability to impact people's lives and make it easier, I feel is so much more gratifying and I truly love it.
Priyanka: This is so seamlessly explained the point,
Priyanka: That design has a huge impact on humans and it's a gratifying experience for designers themselves to create products like that. What I would like to know more is how do you add those aspects of design in the products that you create?
Shivani: I think one of the things that I feel differentiates you as a good designer is you've got to have that passion to really wanting to understand what users want, like understand what their motivations are and what are they looking for when they're trying to complete a task or anything, for that matter. And for me personally, I feel like my design process is deeply rooted and connected with user research. And it's something that I call my superpower because I feel that is something that keeps me connected to thinking about what is it that users want and then build a meaningful experience around it. So throughout my process, like it's not just including research in that specific stage, maybe early on or later in the stage, but it's really working around. That needs of the user throughout the process is something that connects me to that human experience and real emotion of that user. And what, what does it create at the end of the day and how has it impacted them is what is how I think about it?
Priyanka: I absolutely agree. We do this for the people at the end-user, as it said. But it's a known fact that not every company invests in research as much as they should. How do you think designers can help advocate the need for it? Do you really, you know, do they really need to advocate the need for it?
Shivani: Yeah, I mean, that's that's a sad fact. But I mean, I live in the Bay Area, the tech, tech giant space. But I still have had my experiences where companies still think that you know, research would be a waste of time and money or maybe that it should be done just at a specific stage and not throughout the process. And I feel as a designer, as much time we spend designing and spending time on screens creating these experiences, I think it's equally important to also evangelize within our organizations on what we do and why we do own it. It sounds simple, but I think it's amazing how many people do not know what exact role do we play. And, and for research specifically, I feel like, you know, as designers, we are the voice of the users. So to convince the stakeholders on the impact that this research can really have is something that can really be helpful. And so I think it really depends at the end of the day, like who your audience is and who are you trying to convince. But I mean, it can be as simple as like just creating a presentation with, you know, real-world examples of case studies or show what you did in your previous company and how, how it impacted the business or get them a true story or,or.
Shivani: I mean, I've I've also done this like where you have super low budget constraints. And, you know, if you end-user, is somebody like your friends do fit into that user base. I have also connected like free coffee sessions where I, I just did like some impromptu research sessions and. Showed that of how that would create a true value and how it would actually impact the business at the end of the day. I think you just need to be creative and adapt. But what you should not do, I think, is just not compromise and not reach out to the end-user, is what I would say. So it just depends on how you bridge that gap by thinking about how this new experience we're designing and how we are going to not just fulfil the goal of the end-user, but also how it'll impact the business need at the end of the day.
Priyanka: Exactly that exactly what I was going to come to from the experiences you've had, how do you think we can explain the need of user research to the stakeholders, the decision-makers, while also addressing the business needs?
Shivani: Yeah, I think my experience, like working in an agency, was in a different way. You're like all you could do is, of course, convince you cannot always impact the end decision what the client would take. But the one thing that has worked for me being in an agency or an in-house company, that you still are trying to convince the business stakeholders. The one thing that I found is see there, there are two kinds of audiences here. Again, like if I'm thinking just about the business stakeholders, what they are concerned, you have to understand what their language is, what their motivations is. And this is, again, understanding your audience, which is the business leaders of this case, and they want to be convinced about, OK, how is this going to impact subscription and say they want you to increase the subscription by 10 per cent and this is what they care about.
Shivani: But if you as a designer said that as a goal, I think it starts on a very wrong note. You know, you can just force a subscription screen on the landing page and. Yes, and the experience will not be great, but it will increase the subscription by 10 per cent. Right. But it will not create a great user experience.
Shivani: So I think the one way that I have been looking at it is first identifying what is.
Shivani: The UX outcome that I'm looking at, so say, yes, I'm going to create a subscription experience on the landing page, but maybe I need to think about how will it actually impact the customer's experience? And I think I can give an example of how I think about it. So there is a company here called Everlane, which is really concerned, and they make these products which really impact how the climate change is happening. And I'm imagining so if I'm designing for a company like Everlane, I might think and propose when I'm giving this sign up screen that, hey, every sign up that you do, but not just going to send you deals, but will also tell you how every product that we make or how we are impacting or doing something good for the climate change and we might send you updates. So in a way, I'm like, OK, I'm concerned about climate change. Yes, I will sign up and let's see if the company is actually doing something because everybody says we're doing stuff, but you don't really know what's happening or how much you're donating and what you're actually doing. So I would be convinced to actually sign up here. And if I actually find that they're actually doing a great job, I might be the word of mouth spread this and at the end of the day, there will be more people coming in and shopping at your site because they believe in the value that you're creating. So I feel this would be an example of how I am creating a value outcome, a UX outcome by giving this messaging. But at the end of the day, it's actually going to bring in more users, which will increase the subscription, which is what the business is more concerned about. So I think I would just say that as designers, we need to keep the focus on what the user wants, but be able to connect the dots between that improved user experience and how it will help us attain a better business result.
Shivani: And time and again, I think I definitely have found this really valuable in my experience, and this is something that I would suggest.
Priyanka: Absolutely. Shivani Absolutely. User research is what makes the product. What it is going further, Do you think designers can play an active role as researchers or it should be a separate practice in itself?
Shivani: Yeah, and I think this is an experience that is very close to my heart because the last company I was talking about, I've seen first hand how you know we used to work as two different teams of researchers and designers. And and even if you're not in a model there, I think generally you find that researchers and designers are different in ratio. A researcher might work on a project and move on to the other one.
Shivani: But by the time you start acting on those research insights, the researcher might be working on something else. But I feel.
Shivani: As equal, equally important, it is for us to have that collaborative environment with engineers or product managers, which we often do in the process, but it is equally important to bring those researchers back in the process because, you know, when they're actually conducting those say user interviews, where they're listening to the users, there are so many nuances around it. Like there's so much there's so much context when they're actually having that conversation with the user that is really valuable. And sometimes if you just fix fixate your ideas on what the research report or those like 10 liners are telling you, you might miss out something. I mean, you wouldn't always. But you may. So just bringing those researchers back in the process and say, hey, you know what? Just look at the process or I mean, even if the work is in progress. Just ask them to take a look at your work and I'm sure you'll get insights or they might give you feedback on stuff that you might have missed out.
Shivani: And I've always found that really valuable. The other thing I always do, again, I think that relationship is really important, that as designers, we could also be a little bit proactive. So, you know, when the researchers are conducting these sessions, what you could do is just listen to those recordings or maybe it doesn't have to be lively. Like you could just sit and go live and that would be awesome. But if not, you can just go back and listen to the recording sessions.
Shivani: I think those those listening to those uses first hand, I have always found it to be extremely valuable. It paints a bigger picture than you can imagine, and it's always helpful.
Shivani: And I think, again, even if you don't have a research team, I would say you can start with something like, you know, just go out and talk to people who are talking to the customer care like customer care team whos is actually talking to the users. I mean, there's so much insights you have there. I feel like even if you don't have research dedicated researchers in the team, they'd be the one researcher like to do those tasks, look into the data, try and dig in what's happening to see what users are saying, go out in the field and just talk to them and you will be surprised how much you just learn from those simple processes. And the key is just to like you know make sure that your complete design process is revolving around the users. And I think that is that is that is the only biggest advice I think I will give at this point.
Priyanka: Having said that, our audiences are going to learn a lot from you, what you just said, you know, and user research is extremely important as designers, you know, designers ought to do it. They need to step up and take the initiatives to interact, you know, go a step ahead and do it by themselves. So, you know, why don't we sum this up with more about user research? Why don't you tell us about qualitative and quantitative research and standard framework?
Shivani: I think yeah. I mean, maybe I can talk about like a standard framework that you can always think about or little things that you can keep in mind. And it could be as simple as, you know, we all know about. there are like two sorts of qualitative and quantitative research. And a simple mantra for me is to remember, it is like if you're trying to identify the what behind a thing this is when you do quantitative research, things like logging into data, looking at analytics or doing an online survey, but if you're trying to understand the why, that's where qualitative research comes in.
Shivani: So, you know, it could be things like doing micro surveys or conducting those one on one interviews or going in the field and doing ethnographic research. And I'll give you a quick example here, which I always find super fascinating. So my team was actually working for a group, a product which was meant for blind users, and it was not really designed in the process early on. This is a story which goes back way, way back in time there.
Shivani: This research process was not as much of all, but the team still decided to just go out and understand more of what this user is and how do they interact with this device. And it was a very interesting fact that they noticed, which was the speed at which a blind user interacted with that device. Just going through the menu was super fast. And just that little note was something that you would have observed only if you saw the user being in front of them, like being in their natural surroundings, seeing how they use it, because they wouldn't have ever explained it to you, even in one on one interviews that how fast they go through the menu because this is so natural to them. But that little detail is something that led for the design team to think, OK, what can be an experience that could help them navigate through that device faster and meaningfully? So I feel going to those details understanding like what are those moments? What are you trying to achieve and how can you do it? is like there are multiple methods, but you have to really think of what you're trying to achieve and what is the best way to achieve. So there are tons of processes and framework that you could follow. But just keep in mind what your end goal is and what will be most beneficial to the product you're creating or the experience that you're creating.
Priyanka: Thank you, Shivani. It was great to speak with you and regard this being so far away. This was a very inspiring conversation. And for me especially and, you know, our audiences are also going to learn a lot from it for sure. Thank you for being a part of designwise.
Shivani: Thank you. It was an honour talking to you. Thank you so much.
Priyanka: So, that was the conversation with Shivani, which was extremely heartfelt and came through her experience in design for over 12 years. Thank you for listening to us, this was Priyanka Jeph in designwise from QED42.
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Designwise is a podcast created by QED42. It’s a collection of honest conversations with creators, leaders, artists, founders, corporates, peers and misfits.
2020 brought some significant shifts to our priorities and the way people perceive design. We all faced shifting parameters regarding connectedness and business. Similar feelings and experiences led to conversations that gave birth to designwise.
To stay updated for our first podcast release, tune into Spotify or Breaker.